These are the Notes of Hendrik Santo The student of the late Cho Hong Choi. I have collected these notes over a several year period and share them, so other may read their unique perspective - BS

Siu Lien Tau --- the Crane Shape snake body

Siu Lien Tau -- The essence of Training in Details. With the architecture of a crane shape and snake body

The siu lien tao is a set with White Crane Wing Chun "shape" or Yeng (cantonese) Hsing (madarin as Hsing in Hsing Yee) and "Snake body". "Snake body "doesn't mean Snake style or Snake fist. It means the body and limb moving similar to the snake moving.... gradual, smooth, wholesome, soft....

Siu Lien Tau adapt its mother, the White Crane Wing Chun's (from fujian) , applications and potential (or Sai in cantonese) characteristics

In addition, It has a uniqueness of Rou (generally Rou is translated as soft. But Rou should me Gradual, wholesome, Sensitive....) That is where those Sensing, Feeling, Short Jing is from. And we can track where is this style from.

As it was said, The charteristics of Crane is no fighting, Thus it has the virture of the Pheonix. ( this is the essense of using the tranquil will to subdue the action) The Spritual Drangon only shown it's head, Thus it cannot be detected. (this is the essense of spontaneous transformation, adaptibility, and change.)

Thus, SLT is a set fill with "spiritual of Crane and transfornation of Dragon (snake)" . Those are the characteristics or "vision". This is a set fill with Will and body activity down to very details. Thus one has to go "inner to examine oneself's will/ body..." then "out to examine the applications" Thus, it was said to be easly to learn but difficult to master. No fomular or scientific short cut can bring one there. It is an art or a part of oneself to be master not an operation.

Certainly, WCK is not White Crane Wing Chun from Fujian because it has the "rou" "snake body".

In additon, Tan sau's shape is the Water element hand of White Crane Wing Chun of Fujian. However, due to SLT's "snake body" it has different Characteristics compare with White Crane's Water element hand. Pak Sau's shape is the Fire element hand of White Crane just to name some.

By the way, the history of White Crane of Fujian can be traced back to mid 1600. with record both from the lineage and Qing Gorvenment to specific detail. Ie. 1683, Bai Chieh went back to Fujian and taugh inch power...

SLT is not Shao Lin based or DNA because it inherit the White crane's Center Line principle ... hand technics....

this is very very different with those Tai Tzu Based Norhtern Shao Lin with Shao Lin Saying, or other formulate art which divided into dimetion ...

Thus, the SLT also can't be Hung Gar's Iron wire fist because SLT has a rou Soft within Kan hard characteristics.

Of corse, I am no God or Buddha who knows it all, however, what we like to do is to discuss about something based on what we can traced in the history and signature of Chinese martial art system.

Not to say who or which is the best. But to examine what might be the face of Madam WingChun --- SLT ---to benifit everyone in different lineage.

If we know and can pin point the mothers and its DNA. We together from all lineage of WCK can rebuild the face of Madam Wing Chun.

In one set of writings in the Sum Nung family, it states:

Body like the standing crane; arms like the swimming dragon.

1, Crane shape Snake body before and upto early 1900----->

after early 1900. The lost of Kuen Kuit, the war, the culture revolution in China.

2, lost the Snake body and become Crane Shape only --->

3a, Crane Shape importing more and more Hung Gar, CLF, Eagle claw.....

3b, Crane Shape importing TaiJi, Yee Chuan, and or Qi Gong because someone feel something is missing since the inch Jing cannot operate naturally and no lead can be traced.

These can be seen from some WCK books which "importing" TaiJi Kuen Kuit. Or the used of the Term "Yee Niem or Niem Lik or Nail and Hammer analogy for Fa Jing....

3C, Crane shape is fading and lost, importing Northern Shao Lin Tai Zhu based and BahGua.... TKD kicks. THese can be seen as some lineages wants to get back to the original but some how lost its track. Upper inner block become Tan Sau... myth of Shao lin and Hung Mu among with riture are used to fill the gaps.

And the evolution continous, but the basic component are fading. Due to Hung Gar, CLF, TaiJi, Yee Chuan, Bagua, Northeen Shao Lin's Tai Zhu fist, TKD add in.

the system seems to keep fading while the older generation sifu continous passing away.

The general Taboo Questions, alots have in heart but not willing to ask or have asked but get frustrated or not willing to show no faith to the system are:

1, What is SLT is about? 2, what or how it really contribute to one's practiced? 3, what is the result or Kung after practicing it? 4, What to measure and how to measure? 5. Why the rigid YJKYM and the elbow keep into the chest violate the TCM theory for good health? 6....

So, the Question is how can one evol or Revol to better if one has no measurement and don't know where one starts?

You cross a river and put the boat away"

Certainly it is true statement. However, While one practiced SLT one still needs vision...

Say TaiJi evol and revol but they always can go back to thier classical writing--- the compass, the core idea, the charactericstics.

As for SLT, what is SLT? Does one get the full benifit by practicing it??

Certainly these all are question not for who has cross a river. But hopefully those love to cross a river end up in the sea.

The Sun

This is from White Crane Wing Chun of Fujian. A Signature of Clasicall White Crane "Shape". It can be traced....

In the era of 1850, this was one of the symbol of White Crane Wing Chun......

Legend has it that The founder of Yee Chuan had a drawn match with a White Crane master of Fujian. The power of the sun could have drawn the match. The Sun consists of six direction ....

This sun has been embeded in Siu Lien Tau. He who abandon Ng Mui and or Miu Sun abandon the sun.

Find where the ancestor embeded the Sun. It is infront of your eyes. When the clear sun rises, the night is over. And Spring arives.

Without the Sun, there is only forever darkness......No praise of spring.

You don't need the reel silk of TaiJi. The Snake has it there long ago. You don't need the neutrazation force of Yee Chuan. The Crane's Sun has it store.... just a very small idea........... Siu Lien Ta

There is no missing pieces. it is only, with we know the mother of art;We all can open the lock of SLT and enjoy the fruit from our ancestors.

If the trace to the mother is screw up. then the lock will be eternally lock and the art gone within years.

It is impossible to open the lock of SLT with the Tai Chu type of Shao Lin DNA. Wrong DNA.

Based on parallal of White Crane and Siu Lien Tao Kuen Kuit. We talked about Crane 150years or more ago. Not today's Crane or YAng's Crane....

Siu LIen Tau is not a special case of White Crane of Fujien. It has it's own identity. We have written document evident to support this. Tell Yang next time directly if you see him.

Siu Lien Tau's "Snake" ancestor itself is a very advance art. As advance or even more then TaiJI.

All our minor or the "little" or Detail or the inch power are from this "snake" ancestor. With this Snake there are alots of things SLT different to White Crane. However, There are indeed certain part of SLT which is adapting White Crane's core component which we have to admit honestly.

As in the written record passed down by Yik Kam the Red Junk actor said,

" in the dead bed of Miau Soon, Miau Told Yim Yee that what he taught Yim Yee is NOT White Crane of Ng Mui. But an art create by Miau with the Crane of Ng Mui and Miau own art ( The Ermei 12 post as we find out only at 1970's. Due to parallel of Kuen Kuit. between 12 post and SLT). And Miau Named this art SIu Lien Tau."

The Second system is alive and well today.It is the Ermei 12 Post.

This art was a kept style for hundreds of years. According to Mr. Chow Chien-Chuan, this style was created in Song Dynasty which is much earlier then Ming dynasty.

It is a traditional that The person who learn it has to vow to not released it to the outsider of the Ermei Mt's Goldern Summit Temple.

This style is brought to public at 1950's by the Gate holder Mr. Chow Chien-Chuan. Who was a famous TCM doctor in China. Later, we found certain Kuen Kuit of 12 Post or 12 Zhuang parallal with the Yik Kam Kuen Kuit of SLT. Thereby we conclude the research at 1970 very solidly that what in the written record has its facts.

and we know Miau Soon whoever his real name is has to related to the Goldern Summit Temple of Ermei Mt. And he is the one who leak the art out from Ermei.

There is a big different between the Tai Cho or Tai Zhu based of Shao Lin art DNA which stated " San Chaan Tong NA or side jump, quick step..." compare with the Ermei's DNA which stated " Gentlely subdue the enermy within split of inch".

Thus, it is absurd to claim the Shao Lin San Chaan Tong NA type of style to be the Ancestor or the Original of SLT or WCK.

Recently, there is a friendly seminal? meeting? between the Ermei style and the Shao Lin style in Ermei. Where everyone shows their style.

Furthermore, The creator of the 12 post of Ermei was a Daoist who converted to Buddhist. His Title is the White Cloud Chan monk. Due to Ermei also practicing Esoteric Buddhism. ( similar to the Tibetian Buddhism which Guru.) The snake mother of SLT has a mix of Daoist, Chan, and esoteric Buddhism based. It is an art to cultivate meditation, healling, and Self defence. It is different to those Chan Talk as one sees in the Website.

Due to White Cloud monk is a Daoist and expert in TCM, the set he created is using the Daoist or TCM energy path as model of human body energy (mind/qi/physical body) instead of the Chakra system of Esoteric buddhism which passed from India.

Thereby, the link between buddhism cultivation and SLT has to be from Goldern Summit temple. Not Shao LIn.

Certainly not from Website. We know where and who and which lineage...... We even know they speak Fujian in the Red Junk while teaching SLT. Not Tan Sau Ng's diarect.

The Books I got are in Chinese Written by Mr. Chow or Zhou. There are other books by his decendents who were monks and Chinese TCM doctors.

In September 2000, KungFumagazine has a special on Omei mountain kungfu. There you can find some about The 12 Zhuang.

It is a profound system, so it is difficult to describe in a few words. Basically, this is a "meditation system" with Cultivation to enlightement is the main goal, Healling and MArtial art are bi product.

I would not trust instructor outside China without a long term observation. Since it is well known that this system is difficult to master. One of the Grandmaster admit it in an interview. It required TCM, Buddhism,..... alots of cultivation. It is a monk's art basically

There are Three main Schools of Chinese matial art. They are Shaolin, Wudang, and Emei. Each has different Conceptual and Operational path.

other Example,

the White Crane using San Chin stance. The Hung Gar using Wide horse stance. The Siu Lien Tau using YJKYM.

So, even if they have the same hand technics due to thier stance is different the hand technics has to be implement differently.

SLT doesn't use Sanchin Stance but YJKYM. That shows a fundamental different between White Crane and SLT.

Still one can replace Sanchin Stance to do SLT. That will be White Crane way.

YJKYM structure "force " one to use a different type of Jing, pay attention to each small detail and "feeling" while in movement.

Someone might try to use the Hung Gar or Shao Lin stance to do SLT. But that no longer is SLT.

Lets do a very brief summary on White Crane and Ermei 12 post.

A, If I remember correctly, oldy of WCK using the term Zee Mo instead of Choong. I have heard that YKS also using Zee Mo instead Choong.

The White Crane of Fujian uses the term Zee Mo line instead of Choong.

It will be great for the reader to check into the "Zee Mo proper " concept of Fujian White Crane and the Sun Hand to see what one find out. Then, looking back to the WCK and Identify where is those Center Line Theory and Jong Sau.. So called 'Tan ' Sau come from? By the way, White Crane of Fujian can traced its official written story to end of 1600.

B, Where the Name "siu" of Siu LIen Tau originate from? Where the Snap inch Power of the Sun Punch come from?

Check into the Ermei 12 Jong. Within the Ermei 12 Jong, There you will find a set named as "Siu Zee Jong" Siu as in Siu Lien Tau. It is practicing by standing in an equal Shoulder stance, focus on hand, finger technics, cultivate quick jing and Yee. Sound familiar?

As for the Snap inch jing, Check that out from the 36 Jing method of Ermei 12 jong also. See what you find.

Not to mention, if you check into the horizontal Hum Gey/Jee Sau of Ermei 12 Jong in relation to modern day Chum Kiu, and the side-way Hum Jee in relation to Bil Jee's elbow stike.

Too many co incident. LOL

C, As we all in the East knows:

1, Gulao's 3.5 pole is related to Ermei Mt.'s Piecing Cloud Umblera Technics. 2, Some Yuen Kay-San's Technics is identical to Eating Crane Style of Fujian. 3, Cheong Bo Praying to the White Crane of Fujian's ancestor.

The list can go on and on....

See, It doesnt has to emphasis what Yik Kam teaches in Red Junk or YKS's brother's Snake SLT. . and kuen kuit... The things above are all self evident speak for themself. No one can do a cover up on these things. They are just all over the place and different martial art family. And By the way, the Yik Kam kuen Kuit was written in Fujian dialect. LOL

"PS - Yim Yee, Miu Shun, Ng Mui, etc., likely being fictitious characters, might be problematic to use in a fact based theory."

You know this is a tragic of the WCK ancestors. Before 1980's be it Ip Man or YKS or Cho Sun.... all using these name above to in thier history. Because Chinese is a group of people very sensitive and serious about ancestors. Calling others ancestors "fictitious" are a serious insult.

Then, things started to Change and more History were made, now, these ancestors even have to prove that they exist. SAD.

Certainly I can be wrong because I am no god. Howerever my intention is simple. I left my foot step here right or wrong. If I am right then he who in the future has a direction to follow to unlock the SLT, learn the depth of 12zhuang teaching, and cultivate to be a good person to serve the mankind.

If I am wrong let the future historian laught and me. That is fair.

PS. I hope that those who claim otherwise or the oldest of WCK.... present some real specific data about where is Shao LIn Eternal Hall, Tan Sau Ng, Yat Chan, ChiSim and where is all the Center line theory, the Sun Punch, and the Tan Sau is from.

As for the Troll people, well as Lao Tze said, if the fool doesn't laugh at Tao. It is not Tao. And hey, in the world there is Ying Yang. Meaning 50% will like it 50% will against it. That is life. Zen or Chan people has to learn to be "equal" isn't it? Instead of claiming other is sick trying to hurt one...... That is not Chan.

The ancient Chinese using Tee and Young (Body and Application) to classify things. Not today's western "system".... way.

When the Tee and Yoong Fit into a certain Catagory. That is it.

As for the White Crane, it doesn't matter it is san sau or set....,

when the "Zi Wu Zhong Chen " and the "Sun" type of Fujian white Crane "Tee" combine with the five element hands (Water hand as Tan Sau) .... exist as the Center line theory, the positioning, and Tan Sau in WCK. That is White Crane the signature. Case closed. Tee and Yoong. when the Tee Yoong converges, the case also closed.

As we see in writtern official and local history, Fujian White Crane Weng Chun exist. in Red Boat and Canton.

Now, where is the other Shao Lin Weng Chun exist? Cho Family Yik kam Kuen Kuit were written in Fujian.Example, Say a term Chi Sin in Cantoness in Madarin means Sticky Thread. The Hongkong rooted Cantonese knows this term means Nuts or crazy. In other place, that term means Sticky Thread. So, if the sentence wrote " this man is a sticky thread" it makes no sense for other Chinese. And in addition, Like it or not White Crane Kuen Kuit is in Fujian also. LOL. Not Hunan Or Hubei or BeiJing or Soong San shao lin.

See, IMHO, right or wrong, one doesn't need to abandon the ancestors. Ng Mui, Yim Yee, Miau Soon ( as in the history of YSK). At least, we now know Miau Soon exist and he left the hint in the Yik Kam's kuen kuit so that when the condition is correct. We find the ermei 12 zhuang. I don't know who is Miau Soon but I know with all the evident he existed.

As what I said, I am discussing and provide the information I can provide. As for if one looks at it as bull or take it as jewels that is not my concern. I see my duty as a decendent of WCK is done by telling what I found. The rest is rest on every individual's own choice.

The mother from Ermei

Ermei 12 Zhuang was develop in Nang Soong, Some 700 years ago. Dynasty Long before Ming dynasty.

In this drawing, it shows how the Buddha's nature, the four wisdom of Tatagatha, Daoism's Qing/Qi/Shen, develop, link , to the Ermei 12 Zhuang.

We knows today Ermei 12 Zhuang is a mother of the Yik Kam's Siu Lien Tau.

Can't say much for other lineages but my opinion is that there is a great possibilities that all who is belong to Ng Mui/Miu Shun based history might be able to share this finding.

It is about sharing not about the oldest or number one....


PS. Noticed that in this picture there is Tee Yoong as we talked about a few post before. and how the Buddha Nature and the Tatagatha's 4 wisdom get birth to Qing/Qi/Shen and the Tee Yoong..... That is the classical way Chinese describe thier idea.

1) If writings passed down for centuries in Emei, Sichuan, but not released outside the temple until the 1970s closely parallel writings passed down from the 1860s within the Cho family in Panyu, Guangdong, and,

2) These writings closely match the culture, language, and thinking of the time (descriptive in TCM terms)

Exerpt from Rene Ritchie reposting Info on Cho hong choi and Hendriks research:

Zhuang is Mandarin PinYin for Jong, same character as Muk Yan Jong. It means post and is typically used for Zhan Zhuang (Jan Jong), or "Standing Post" or "Posture" in Qigong, Xingyi, and other systems. In Emei, there is a temple called Golden Summit, and in the 1970s a book (I think there are 3 actually now) was released on a Qigong system called Shi Er Zhuang (Sup Yee Jong or 12 Posts/Postures) which are twelve short Qigong exercises (they have martial content as well but the general well-being of the practitioner, I believe, was paramount). These exercises use very detailed (in TCM terms) methods for alignment and generating Jing (Ging, Power).

The Cho family have preserved a set of Kuen Kuet, handed down within their family since the 1860s from a man nicknamed Yijin (Yik Kam, or Wing Gold). Yik Kam was one of the Red Junk opera performers, a Sidai to Wong Wah-Bo. His apprentice on the Red Junks was Cho Shun, who came from Panyu village in Guangdong. The Cho's (he had a couple of brothers) ran a martial arts gym there, teaching a village form of Southern Fist with roots in Choy Lai Fut, Hung Kuen, etc. He could not, however, nor could his brothers, match skills with Yik Kam's Wing Chun Kuen, so Cho Shun became his student and the Cho lineage began.

The Cho's preserve one set from Yik Kam, the Siu Lien Tao, which for them is a much longer set with 4 sections. The first 3 sections are similar to the other WCK branches doing Siu Lien/Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, and Biu Jee back to back, and the 4th section (if memory serves) contains the 'mother' or core cycle techniques (which you find similar things to in other lineage's San Sik.

The Kuen Kuit basically detail the Siu Lien Tao in a very detailed manner (what should be going on in terms of intention, meridians, etc.) and have a very strange parallel to the Kuen Kuet for the Emei 12 Postures. Other parts of the Kuen Kuit are strangely parallel to Fujian White Crane Kuen Kuit.

So, I guess in a nutshell, Hendrik proposes (based on the research his sifu began in the 1970s and he's continued to this day) that Wing Chun Kuen (at least his branch, he probably thinks all branches but can only speak authoritatively about his own) comes from a melding of Emei 12 Postures engine (method for power generation) and Fujian White Crane techniques (hands like Tan Sao (water palm), Pak Sao (fire palm), etc.)

As to older and the rest, each branch may contain some elements that are "older" and some that are "newer" (even a branch that sprouted earlier keeps growing, and in some cases has more time to twist and turn). In this case, the Yik Kam/Cho branch of Wing Chun Kuen sprouted about the same time as everyone else (Cho Shun returning to Panyu after the Qing purge, roughly when Wong Wah-Bo went to Foshan, etc.), and while they doubtless have their own developments, they also seem to have retained some elements from the past that could possibly give us an insight into our collective history.

Yuen Kay Shanlineage also mentions Miu Shun from the west of Canton. And based on Miu Shun's story, accidentally we found the match writting of Emei to Yik Kam's SLT writing.

Siu Lien Tau is just a smoke screen "Miu Shun" used to cover up his leak of Emei 12 Zhuang to someone from Fujian which he not supposed to due to his vow in the temple of goldern summit.

In addition, Obviously, the White Crane's center line concept and the Chao Yang Sou or the Hand of Clear Sun are core of White Crane and indeed they are a beauty. That is why Miu loves them.

Remember the so called immoveable elbow... guess where they are from? ..I "think" those are related to the hand of Clear sun.

As for " before", LOL, the Yik Kam kuen kuit was part Emei 12 Zhuang's writing and part white crane term.

but written in Fujianese. Why Fujianese? But Not Cheong Ng's Hu bei or Hu Nan or BeiJing language? Or in Cantonese as Wong Wah Boh and Yik Kam and Dai FA Min are there singing opera in Cantonese right? and those Hung Mun brothers from Shang Hai, they are Sam Hap Wui, they spoke Cantonese. right? LOL.

why do they wrote the Kuen Kuit in Fujian?

Beats me. Guess why? Well, I don't know.

But I think Miu Shun eventhough he never wrote his name down did tell the truth.

If Miu leaves signature so that we can find his art the Emei 12 zhuang. Why should he lies?

and Yim as Yim Wing Chun (ok may be her name is Yim Hsu Chi ) is indeed Fujian last name....

and someone in Asia Forum mention the GuLao senior mention the 3.5 pole is linking to EMEI's umbrela technics.

why suspect the grandfather on importing emei by fujianese to canton? LOL

I think if we look into the language used, the timing of Red Jung involment of Tai Ping or those up rising., the geographic direction of revolution .... I think Some old Vampire (analogy) must be bring the "blood line" into Red Junk.

See, it was stated that Miu Shun learning White Crane in KwiLin and Yim Yee lives in Kwi county. Why Kwi Lin or Kwi county? remeber the matching to 'western paradise"? Alots of activity in "west".

We also know that Hung Siu-Chuan with his group of people Visited PunYee the home townlocation of Cho Family a year before Taiping uprising. And we know the Cho at that time also involve in the revolution. Atleast the salutation and code which get passed down prove so.

May be Miu Shun purposely wants to leave us something so that we all can trace back when the world is in peace? For fighitng is not the ultimate.

As it is said in the Emei 12 Zhuang Kuen Kuit, "within the Asura realm (living beings who loves to fight), it is also equip with compasionate. as the disciple of Buddha, The precept against all Killing and hurting other living being.

In addition, I think different to other hyphothesis about the art is created as the san sau first.

I trend to look at it as: since Miu has a solid platform--emei 12 zhuang. with Tee and Yong well defined century ago, SLT doesn't has to go through the san sau.... evolutin period. It can just adapt. The theme is already there Both theoritical and application.when Miu decide to create SLT.

One of the last gate keeper who passed away decade ago is a buddhist monk/ TCM doctor/ qikung master and a famous one in the history of China.

THis drawing is say all about how the Buddha nature transform into the 12 Zhuang. and how to use the 12 zhuang to return to the Buddha nature. it is about internal training.

To return to the Buddha nature is the main goal of the 12 Zhuang. Once one can "return" one also can transform back. Once one can heal one can also kill....

This is from the lineage of Goldern Summit temple of Emei. Created by the White Cloud Chan monk. White Cloud is a Daoist who later convert to Buddhism.

This is different then those empty claim of Chan this and Chan that. IT has where, who, what, how and accord to Buddhism.

If you have good chinese Classic scholar friend let him explain to you about this picture.

And, if you noticed on the top, there is a Chinese Character "small, little " Guess what is that.

" sticking/cluing searching for palm and wrist. massage/Pressing/covering to listern/sinking his/her force. Dont' against the rushing horse's Jing, Horizontally, locked the wild bull's feet.

Sealing/closing borrow the incoming technics......"---- eRmei 12 Zhuang kuen kuit.

Mui Shun is named in both Sum Nung and Cho family legends as a monk who learned the White Crane system from Ng Mui and mixed it with his own system (un-named) and taught it to Yim Yee (who in turn taught Yim Wing-Chun).

The path of searching is not obvious. I think it is mostly Karma. What the ancestors will releave they will reveal themself.

See, For example, one book by Chow Chien-Chuan was delayed to be published from 1962 to 1983. Due to Chow was frame later die in prison. this book was almost destroy. Luckily his family kept it in the Pillow or something If I remember right. and it has to wait 21 years before it was published.

Some how, I heard about this book in the 1962's writing (somewhere) but I don't know the above story. Strangely, I got this book.

As for the 12 zhuang book, I also got it accidentally. Nothing Plan.

I got the White Crane Kuen Kuit on Sun Hand from a guy I don't know when I mention the Sun hand in a conversation. He turned out to be a senior in White Crane and give me the Kuen Kuit.

Same with the Shang Hai's Dien Chun Dang and the Book written about those brothers who link to the Red Junk.

These incidents about history or DNA stuffs are not logical or scientific but that is how I got them.

So, may be, since I am a buddhist and superstitous. May be that is the Heaven's or the Ancestors' way of telling me to Share for that is not my effort. I was just there in the right time and right place. Pure lucky.

Since I am a buddhist and as a buddhist I belive in Karma.

I don't know what you all might find if you all start this search of root, may be powerfull technics might surface.

So, I feel responsible to share the following. Otherwise I don't feel right.

As my sifu Ven. Hsuan Hua, the Chan patriach, one of the Succesor of Ven. Hsu Yun had seriously told me.

One who kills other will end up be kill. One who hurts other will end up be hurt.

Hero is the one who help with compasionate and contructive, Not the one who destroy with hatret , vengens, and fill with agression of "I am number one" try me!

I know what I said is strange for alots of people but then I would not take this litely.

As in the Kuen kuit of 12 zhuang also remind us the samething. The follower of Buddha should not hurt or kill.

Please make this search a constructive, positive, benifit to all, and not creating bad karma. Make happy ending where everyone win.

The 12 Zhuang book by Chow is always a classic since it was published.

To be real honest, it needs alots of Chinese Classical background/TCM/Buddhism/Daoism to understand. Chow himself is a man with alots of capabilities. He knows both western science educated and meet his sifu who cue his disease. And started his journey into the Emei 12 Zhuang.

I think sooner or later someone in university of asian study might do a translation to this book which is a treasure of China.

Now, obviously there is concern. As it said, Buddha and Demo King only different by a thin thread, one thought screw up we all can be demon. He who knows to heal knows to kill. That is beyond the benifit of a single person but a responsible for the society.

As I read Chow's book, There are things that Chow released and there are things that Chow only release to certain people. He is aware of these things beside he is also a Doctor and buddhist. This is a difficult subject.

Actually, that lead to another thought of mine, why does Dr. Leong Jan doesn't passed down anything in writing. That doesn't make sense in the logical thought that he is a doctor knows' TCM, involved with the Red Junk..... He should know alots.

The Full title of the book is:

Chi Kung Lia Fa (Chi Kung Therapy) Emei 12 Zhuang Seh Mi ( The explaination of the secret of Emei 12 Zhuang)

By Chow Chien-Chuan

It is published by San Xi people publisher. issue by San Xi Xing Hua bookstore.

Since this is a book written in 1960. and reprint in 1983 There are no Isbn number.

My appology that I got only one old old looks copy. So I can't sell it to you.

Here I would like to conclude my discussion by thanking everyone here on the discussion about this topic. And thanks Rene and David on helping to make things clear in English.

Since we still have SLT/SNT, CK, BJ from different lineages and certain element of Gu Lao has linked to Emei art today, these all serve as an evident that Wong Wah Bo did not discarded elements. He might teaches different people differently but elements are there in the three forms and applications in general.

when people claim that the olderst WCK have one single hand technic such as Fok Sau or pak sau or tan say. That can't be done. As it is said in I-Ching, The single Yang will not Grow.

In addition, if people claim that one has to only stand there rigid in YJKYM and moving only one's hand/arm can produce power or Jing. That also can't be done. IMHO.

The reason is one needs Oxigen flow in all part of the body to be healty.

By placing the whole body in a tensing state and just moving the hand will not get Oxigen smoothly fill the body, without oxigen flow freely in the body how will that generate power?

Not to mention, constantly tensing the body with Chest breathing such as people in stress might induce high blood pressure. That is pulling reverse gear to the practitioner's health. That is not an "lively" art but a "deadly" one.

"Cheong Bo prayed to Fujian's White Crane Weng Chun's ancestors as ancestor. So, Cheong Bo's Weng Chun is related to Fujian's White Crane Weng Chun.

And the Dragon punch of YKS is exactly the same with the Dragon of Eating Crane, a branch of FuJian's White Crane which settle in Taiwan's Liu Family."

On the other hand, The " Tong Nuo.." Kuen kuit is closer to Northern Shao LIn type of Long fist Tai Tzu DNA.

So, there might be more then one Weng Chun in the red boat. In additional to the Praise the Sping Wing Chun Kuen.

So, IMHO, there might be three WC there

a, the White Crane weng Chun b, the Weng Chun which is closer to Northen Shao Lin C, The Wing Chun which is closer to White Crane weng Chun from Fujien.

The DNA of White Crane type Weng Chun or Wing Chun has the Characteristics of " Lay Lao Hei Song" or Squarely face and make use the incoming force. With San Chin based or YJKYM SLT based.

The DNA of Shao Lin type Weng Chun has the Characteristics of "Tong nuo..." Fast step, to meet and dealing with the in coming force. Shao Lin Long Fist Tai Tzu based.

Two different DNAs. Both are respectable, Nothing good or bad, just art from different ancestors.

May be someone has to do research seriously that when is the Chinese Starts to use the Term Hei Gong

Serious, In Wong Wah-Poh's time or Yik Kam's time did they called it Hei Gong? When did that term being created and used? What did they called at that time? In my understandaing, Today, There is hard and soft Hei Gung. and , There is Nei (internal) Gong and Wai (external) Gong.

SLT-Does not contain Iron Vest

Siu Lien Tau has technics to break Iron vest or Iron Shirt or Goldern Bell Sheild.

So, Why do Siu Lien Tau need( to waste energy, pull the reverse gear, ) to include in those Iron body technics which can't protect one from the Siu Lien Tau technics itself?

Furthermore, similary, why do siu lien tau need to include those Iron Palm technics when the siu lien Tau technics can cause internal damage?

Alots of people have to do thier home work before posting.

If you think your Iron vest is so great. You think your issuing is so great? Go to BangKok and have a try out with those Thai Boxers or go join a Kyokushin tournament. See how many kicks your iron vest can take and how powerfull you issuing?

Iron vest and Iron palm looks great. But, read the Thai Boxing match's history document (not His story). what is the result?

I am going for the Rainbow body or light body in Emei 12 Zhuang . Certainly not the low tech Iron body.

Got White crane?

Got White Crane from Fujian in your Wing Chun Kuen? Yes? No? Why Yes? why no? where is it? what is it?

Do you do Tan Sau? what is that?

Can Tan Sau ---- the omni super technic? If yes then why white White CRane need 5 element hands instead of just keep the one element ----- water element ---- the fliping hand....

Where did Tan Sau Ng learn his Tan Sau? since tan sau is water element hand of White Crane from Fujian Evegreen area.

first, i would like to clearify here that what i talk about is applied for Yik Kam but might or might not apply for other family of WCK.

You have big question. Speaking of Jing. one has to undestand the different characteristics of the art. Analogous to a human, one has to know his face, his weight....

So, say Hung Kune generally speaking Hung Kune emphasis on Waist and Stance power. Choy Gar generally speaking Choy Gar emphasis on fast hitting. Northern Shao Lin generally speaking N Shao Lin emphasis on San Chaan Dong Na. White Crane generally speaking White crane of fujian emphasis on two hands combination.

So what about WCK? everything has it's characterictics and uniqueness right?

Ok, for Yik Kam lineage, can't speak for other lineage, SLT system is a very dynamic system when it was design by Miau Sun fusing his own 12 zhuang with White crane.

the characteristics is as it was said " gentlely subdue the enermy within split of an inch.... open up and lock the wild bull's feet... using the tranquil and silent to subdue the action....

so, to implement and provide training for the dynamic needed. the reason of the core is named as Siu Lien Tau means it has to train one to very details so that one has lots of degree of freedom even in a small move to adapt or issue power.

So, all is about path. how to generate to breath.. how to focus....

Say Tan Sau shape, there are 3 differents of Jing can be issue with look very closed outside shape.

Say the YJKYM, how to get the chi and breathing down to one's back bone. why back bone? since back bone is very important for body movements right?

Name of the set is not usefull but the content and states of progress are important for me. Body and application has to be unify. as it was said "tee young yee ru" the application and body is one. " yee tong shen dao" the intention focus and the spirit is there. The mastery of the art is about "Ching Chie and Cien Dee" the states and the vison of States......

So, there is alots of things.... medirians... conciousness... the level of progress. It is real high tech stuffs in today's language. one needs the background of TCM and Daoism and Buddhism to decode things.... it certianly not just one block one punch....

or using fast to defeat slow similar to what the Taiji writing said " those side track .. the potential are different ... fast defeat slow.. brutal force defeat weak... that is not about the study of Lik.... " But more as it continous to say " the hero has no match because one knows other...."

In additional, The reason why SLT is in YJKYM and to the White Crane Sanchin Stance is because SLT using "soft"Jing engine. But, one can still doing SLT in San Chin Stance. that creat the White CRane type of Jing. If one use the Shao Lin horse stance then the hand technics will not fuse smoothly because the basic intention of the design is different.... Sure people can mix things as they like it but will they fuse into one pice?

There are lots and lots to talk about and investigate. Here just give you some taste....

Some might find what I say interesting. some might think it is garbage.... that is up to everyone's taste.

The revolution has failed. The Hung Mun and Taiping had lost to the Qing. Our so called advance martial art doesnot gain us victory against Qing army and the western fire arms. Ancestors fleets..... No one said this is not sad.

It is 2003, 163 years after 1840. Red boat era has long gone.... He who still following the foot step of the revolutionist's Un interval path have a choice to let go and travel the way out and free...and living in this instant. or keep figthing the Qing in the past.

"We all continously keep our foot steps (but) have forgotten about Way out. Within (our) hopeless (we) search for temperaly satisfaction. We all release our pain while awake within dreaming (while we sleep). Drifting in the place where light is dimming Can't reach the final destination, return to the starting point. "Enjoy" that never ending journey......"

In the name of Chan or Siu Lien Tau some keep on fighting.... fighting. In the name of Chan or Siu Lien Tau some got the way out.

Which is the teaching of the Buddhas of ten direction and past, present, and future? Fighting or let go? You make the choice. Who can change one's living beside oneself? How can spring come if Winter eternally never gone?

A movie I watched title: Hero

A great movie.

The philosophy in the movie state that

for third level sword man: his hands has sword thus his sword is fast.

for second level sword man: his hands has no sword but sword in the heart thus he can use Sword Qi...

for first level sword man: both his hand and heart has no sword. Thus.... Hero...

In chinese, there is a term : Chien Dee (mandarin) or the Ground of Vision. Capability can be easily check with one's Chien Dee. Only he or she with the Chien Dee can desribe specifics in details.... very details.

Nope. Yik Kam WCK is far different with Chi Sim Weng Chun as I know from Sifu Andreas.

The Yik Kam SLT of Cho family is a combination of White Crane and Emei 12 Zhuang's DNA. Nothing Similar at all with Saam Pai Fut. Yik Kam SLT cannot be White CRane's San Chin or HAk KA's boxing. Yik Kam kuen kuit recorded what is the DNA of this set.

In addition, Yik KAm is an actor playing Proper woman role. So, jing is culivate with Soft .... definate not those Shao Lin or Hard type of Jing. One thing I want to add is that white Crane has core which is not just movement but the essense of White Crane. That too was implant within the Siu Lien Tau.

Why the Weng chun system isnt related to the Yik kam Siu Lien Tau.

"Chi Sim Weng Chun Weng Chun Sap Yat Kuen is simmilar to Yik Kam Siu Lim Tau." - AH

Hi Andreas,

Happy New year!

I understand you might post your claim based on some oral speculation which you might not looking into and verify in details.... as many of us do.

Thus, you don't have to answer this post.

However, if you are serious about it.

Since you and me are both one of many succesors of different system, we have the responsibility to clarify things for the Martial art public and future generation of Wing Chun Kuen and Weng Chun Kuen. This is Purely technical nothing personal.

Things need to be specific and cannot be general. So, they needs to be Based on evidents, facts, details...... in very specific.

For your claim to be valid,

You need to provide explaination and comparison in the following basic issues to justify your claim.

0, Naming:

why the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tau set is called Siu Lien Tau not " ending with Kuen"?

1, Body and application of the system:

the Tee Yong or body and application of Yik kam's Siu Lien Tau. and how is this link to the four wisdom of Tatagatha and buddha nature.

2, Uniqueness in cultivation of style:

How many unique cultivation keys for the YKSLT set and how many stage or progress of achivements interm of body, Qi, Shen while practicing the set or Sin Fa and Cheh Dee in Madarin?

3, Arrangement of Contents:

the Emei 12 zhuang and White Crane connection, where are they located in the YKSLT set? and why it arrange this way?

4, Uniqueness in method:

The principle of Yik Kam SLT set and its arrangement and uniqueness which makes it no longer White Crane or Emei 12 zhuang?

5, Specific Detail implementations and significant:

The kuen kuit of Yik Kam Siu Lien Tau in detail and specific utilization of 12 medirians....and intention focusing..... and the significant in health according to TCM in specifics details?

6, Transmition code:

Hung mun code in 1850 about the transmittion of this Yik Kam set in the red boat era.

7, The identity of Creator and thier back ground:

this set according to Yik Kam's record is design by Miu Soon. who create this set based on his own internal art and White Crane. Miu Soon eventhough we in Yik Kam lineage do not know that migh be a real name or not. we in Yik Kam lineage had found the type of martial art Miu Soon did with evidents from other system of Chinese martial art.

How is this relate to Chi Sim of Weng Chun with proof of specific evidence? what art in specific Chi Sim practiced? What chinese dialec language he used at his time?

and how is this link with the EVERGREEN HALL of Shao LIn which is not identified yet . Where we in Yik Kam lineage know with evident that SLT link with the Buddhist Temple on the Goldern Summit of Emei mount and can be located today.

Since Benny and his student of VTM make claim in public that HFY and Chi Sim are the oldest. Which is the olderst compare with everyone's Wing Chun Kuen. I presume you agree with Benny Meng.

I certainy would love to also understand what evident in details of that public claim of Benny Meng which you might have agree on.

I would like to suggest that all the sets disregard from who or which family. I would not take it in a face value. Without knowing who is the mother of the set... Conclusion cannot be drawn.

White Crane DNA and Shao Lin DNA are different DNA.... for example, 6.5 pole is not a unique name. Other system also has 6.5pole. And people always made up sets.... It happen every where.

As for the Pre-Red boat issues, A fun question for you is that why in the world that Yik Kam's SLT writing was written with Fujianese.... Why is the 4 key core of Yik Kam SLT was written in Fujianess... while he was an actor working in Red boat opera where it is in Canton.....

what is the possibility of the cantonese Red boat artists create the SLT's core in Red boat; and then the Cantonese so kind to allow thier creation in Red boat written in Fujianese? May be in this way they can learn a second language while learning SLT? ha ha ha ( I guess the Cantonese needs to take TOFEL when they want to learn SLT ) So what does Dai Fa Min Kaam speak? ha ha ha How about Tan Sau Ng? He speak mandarin? HuBei diarect? why this pice of writing was written in Fujian? Ha ha ha let you do some more reseach while I am taking a rest.

the name of the monks from Emei lineage...... the language of the Yik Kam kuits.... there are lots of signatures.... the code of Hung Mun

Got Chan?

Got Chan?

it is said in the six patriach sutra that

figthing is the heart (mind) of Win or Lost That is against the Tao This type of heart (mind) give raise to You me race .. time How with this type of Heart (mind) can one uses it to enter Samadhi?

Think about it. Is the Practice Got Chan basic?

Don't even have to go that far talks about Cuan Cen or Transmission of the School teaching or the Mind Seal of Da mo by who... lineage ..... That simple.

Got Research? It is said that "pointing at deer and call it a horse".

This "pointing at deer and call it a horse" happen in ancient China when group of people decide to call a deer a horse for political reason of self benifit.

How close to fact is a research can be if the mentality is calling deer a horse?

Got the education? It is said that " love the junior"

This "love the junior" is an idea of confucian. Junior is the future. To educate the junior, Not filling them with delusion. Junior has tendency of reacting to defend their family impulsively without thinking.

How far can a junior progress without good foundamental understanding of the subject and training. How can the junior comprehend deeper scriptures? If the junior has no training and going around challenging with what the junior don't even have a clue. How sad is it? That is destroy the future. Smart words can't change facts. Challenging can't destroy facts.

Love the junior? that is the basic. It doesn't even has to go as far for lineage or who is in what position in a lineage. It doesnt matter. How can the junior carry on if the junior is lack of foundamental eduction and training? and with a always you are wrong, I am right attitude?

Great fire to generate light in the dark night.

Then, I will burn scripture of White Crane I will burn Scripture from Emei I will burn Scripture of SLT... to make light until the Sun rise.....

When the Sun has raised ... even though, the blind will not see.

Spring will return soon... it is january.

Sin Fa??

In a martial art system which include Mind/Body teaching. There will exist Sin Fa (mind method) beside Kung Fa ( training method) ,Jing Fa (the method of the path of force) .....

the method of mind which is the core or platform of the art.

The bottom line is to decode this shin fa and implement it to see the original face of the art and to see how far can this art goes.

there is a serious question everyone has to answer honestly about thier art within thier heart. Does the art has the Shin Fa and really related to the Chan.... Daoism... that is critical because when one needs it one might not have the vehicle to go advance. So, Chan... Daoism... are not an empty word. the Question is does the cell of the art has the DNA/platform? Claiming the art is from Emei or Wudang or Shaolin doesn't by default guarentee the DNA/platform exist. So, is it really Daoist from the Wudang or Chan from the shaolin is the core DNA of one's WCK? Say, I answer mine Yik Kam SLT as more esoteric buddhism / Daoist buddhism trend. So, Chan school teaching is not a direct related for my wck.

But, The question has to answer by each individual from thier own lineage represent. It is not about arquement ects. It is more about so what is it?


"Thinking" still has a "limitation" due to the limit of the "thought".

In addition, say, Thinking about laying on the beach will sure relax one but also will cause the mind to not be mindfull on what one is doing...

There is a "state/ place" called " true emptiness or mist of great void". there the mind is mindfull and the body and breathing are in a accord to natural state.... there when limit is cast off....

I wish things can be simple.... however, what I found out, in the mind domain. it is difficult to communicate. not to mention how to put all the mind/body/breathing/qi flow/ focus...../ sensing/...

On the other hand, inner peace and relax are different things. on can achieve relax via thinking different things but not neccessary inner peace while one has to face the issue.

Thus, as in buddhism teaching, when the self, you, me,... fighting thought arise. there is the end of inner peace.


investigating "who" is the "one" "who observe" is the path to limitless... Attach to the" one" "who" is observing is the path to limitation.

IMHO, What SLT needs is the path to limitless... But the vehicle to limitless is it only Chan? There are Esoteric buddhism teaching, Chan teaching, Reciting Buddha Teaching, Daoist teaching,...... 25 vehicles of practices all listing in the Surangama sutra.

For example, As in the Kuen Kuit of the Ermei 12 Zhuang it said " Attain and confirm the Samadhi principle, this particular one "sees" the Amitaba (limitless wisdom and limitless light) buddha... one has to take refuge to the Guru." This is closer related to an Esoteric Buddhism teaching. Amitaba Buddha and Guru are the key words here for Esoteric teaching relationship...

as in the ancient scripture, When one "sees" the "limitless" then the description of "limitless" is accord with the description in Chan teaching since there is the same "limitless"... But then that doesnt mean this person following Chan teaching to "see" the "limitless".

Furthermore, Say today's teaching of Heaven, Human, earth in some WCK family.

Heaven, Human, earth teaching is based on I-ching....The Dao or path of Heaven is Ying Yang... The six lines of Iching represent Heaven, Human, and earth with each catagory two lines. so all add up to be six..... That is not Buddhism or Chan based but Daoism based....

All these mind related stuffs is a part of the big picture. there are still the Body mechanics, breathing, qi, intention..... all have to put together at the end. only, when all converge. the system is put together.... otherwise one stuck with different "things" instead of a "pice".

Then, when the system is investigate and cross examine from various angle the longer and details the investigation and cross examine take the weaker the system will hold.

Again, IMHO, the art of peace, the book is a good one to take a look on how others put things together.

What is the shape of water? it changes... but never lost its water nature. that is the difficult part.

In General, the image of WCK is Tan da, Pak Da....Bong Elbow...sun punch .. with YJKYM ....

Does WCK really has to look like this?

Thus I have heard,

1, breathing has to be smooth and natural disregard of situation. 2, limiting thoughts has to be cast off and back to true emptiness.


the bone and muscle will follow.....

12 zhuang, TaiJi, Shin Yee, Yee chuan, Aikido.......... all share the same platform eventhough the implementation is different.....

Got the platform then it is time to shoot for stars....

How many will belive and how many will follow?

Lap Nim

" Cast off limiting thoughts and return to emptiness. Stand in the mist of great void. This is the secret of the way of a warrior." ----Morihei Ueshiba

Is that feels like standing on top of a mountain cover with green trees, has a wide view strecth towards the horizon of the gentle blue sky, free to inhale the fresh cold morning air deeply, with a body feel as light as silk which almost lavitate, with gentle wind flaping the soft skin, approach with warm and gentle mind is bright, lite, joy and peace, drifting into forgeting the existance of oneself.. but still "know" all things clearly?

oh, forget about technics? Learn and forget. learn and forget. make the technics part of one's being.

without Hum Hung and relax the abdoment, each breath will not sink to dantien naturally. one couldn't even attain a healing purpose.

at absorving in coming power hum hung and curving the spine accodingly, suck the power in to open the body bow to build the potential...the qi stick to the back..... then release.

Inhale, exhale....... what is holding there static and extrem?

With forcing Hum Hung and staticly standing there just to imitate the outer shape .... everything stuck at the chest.....

IMHO. now how to deal with the mind's flow....inhale, exhale, spine, root.... all are dynamic stuffs.... until then one doesn't really comprehend SLT..... Thus as I have heard.

Yik Kam Kuen Kuit purpose


Thus as I have heard, Hundred of years ago, for some Chinese martial art system, The core set which represent the system usually will come with a description writing.

This description writing of the set consist of two parts.

1, the big picture or the summarization of the set (or the particular section of the set)

2, the detail description of each move which will including the description of the state of Mind/breathing/ body movement... and or specific application or Jing or moral qoute or buddhism/ daoism related teaching....

Somehow, similar to or analogy to the present day's technical paper. there are the abstract, the outlines , and with details description of the outline.

Thus I have heard, In the ancient time, to identify a system or to recieve the traditional of a teaching, this writing has to be shown or passed to the students. Otherwise, the system is incomplete.

Today's so called Kuen Kuit are bit and pice from different place. some are confucian's teaching and some are Sun Tze art of war qoutation. some doesn't belong to the same place...

The picture of the old time Kuen kuit is to a big extend fading away.... and become up for personal intepretation due to the lost of connectivity of the pre or post writing...

to the worst is that even most chinese doesn't have the classical chinese training today. thereby to understand thing as it is which is obvious for anyone who has classical chinese background is difficult. and more and more people link unrelated stuffs to make up things. and the evolution continous.....

Thus as I have heard.

As you like it

If it is an as you wish world. Put aside of which lineage ,which branch, shaolin or wudang or white crane or ....

How do you wish you WCK system to be?

The feeling? The styling ? The movements? The ....

How would you like your SLT to look like or feel like or touch like..... How would you like your opponent to do when you confront them? send him flying? pin him? ....

What do you wish to achive? How deep do you wish you Kung fu?


1, needs to cast off the limiting thoughts and return to true emptiness to achieve this. 2, need to do standing post to achieve this. 3, need to learn the ying yang medirian and how it accord to breathing and intention setting to achive this. listern with intention. 4, need to do circular drill with ying yang medirian to get here for dyanamic. then use standing post or the sun potential to refine this. 5, need time after 1,2,3,4 to curtivate the qi 6, need to understand the sphere force visualization and jing's path trajectory to get here, since the movement of reel silk or changing body weight is too big.

if one doesn't have to move alots to absorb, neutral, issue, or bounce back the incoming force. sphere force visualization is needed.

Since all of above is within SLT/SNT. so do SLT/SNT to achive them!

but needs many and many and many moons to get there. not too late with we got there at 70year old.

Heh heh heh. sorry for my big mouth. Sorry ancestors I know I am a sinner who always open more can of worms. Ok I shut my big mouth now.

Ermie Kuen Kuit

2003--- Its about time, Good or bad, right or wrong to post this sample of draft translation .... why SLT is called SLT......Emei ...Shao Lin .. Hung Mun..... .... where it comes from..... your decision..... it is a free will era.

Emei 12 Zhuang Kuit

(by white cloud chan master at Soong dynasty, china. about 800years ago, on the goldern summit of Emei Mt. )

Contemplate Heaven and observe the earth, Round and emptiness are the source of all methods, Big and small, Open and close, Its wonderful-ness is (while) linking with heart. (mind)

Thus, as it is not moving, That is the true Ying Yang, That Jewel not moves, (Thus) Activation of Applications is constant (unended).

There are just Qi(energy) and Mai (the dynamic movement of energy), Not moving give raise to moving, Yee (intention) moves and Shen (Spirit) arrive, Open, Close, Sinking, and Rising. Sinking Thus HA HA Rising Thus Szi Szi Open and close are one Grow the (goldern) Pill at this instant ( and here).

Quite as the autum's moon Active as the Tronado Gentlely subdue the enemy Within inch or split of an inch.

Light as a feather Heavy beyond the mountain While applying there is no fix external shape Tee (body) and Yoong (application) are united.

As Vast as the Heaven and earth The foundation of 12 Zhuang Silently recognize and master (it) within (your) heart (mind) Working deligently is the precious Key.


The wonderfull applications of this posture Big or Small is depending on yee (intention) Distance with open, close by with close Those Demons will be stunts

Even within the realm of Asura (figthing god) Compassionate comes within us (we) The disciple of Buddhas (we) take the precept of not killing and hurting (living beings)


Small Zhuang and Big Zhuang (posture), Within the Kuit, there hidden the Zhuang. Using the Forward and reverse complementary-ly Never forget about this while Investigate and cultivating. Heaven and Earth 12 postures, Training hard (one) needs the small (details) Using this advance Kuit Ten Thousand leads source from the small ( details).


Attain the Samadhi instantly "meet" the Amida Buddha This is ultimate method, (one) needs to take refuge to the Guru (patriach) Active or silence doesn't hinderance each other The buddha nature attain thus master.

Frank Sinatra - My Way

And now, the end is near, And so I face the final curtain. My friends, I'll say it clear; I'll state my case of which I'm certain.

Small Zhuang and Big Zhuang (posture), Within the Kuit, there hidden the Zhuang. Using the Forward and reverse complementary-ly Never forget about this while Investigate and cultivating. Heaven and Earth 12 postures, Training hard (one) needs the small (details) Using this advance Kuit Ten Thousand leads source from the small ( details).

(From) stance to legs (motion) forward or backward The upper three and hands motion or still The middle three front bent, back bent, or side turn. One must totally "master" this method (all must link into one pice)

Investigate the Small Posture while (prictice with) stillness and motion. (its) Qi, Mai, on the surface and deep (within the body)

External application and subdue (heart) Demon (one own illusion ) The enermy was injured but not noticed.

Start the praticed with Heaven posture Stand in the equal shoulder stance The heart (mind) is balance (tranquile/peace) and the breathing is quite Both eyes stares forward (far) away Start with moving left hand forward Settle the Ying Palm at shoulder high Finger toward the sky then transform into the center Mai (Half Ying Half Yang medirian) Sweep (reel) spiral while return to waist. Five finger tracing the taichi circle.....

That's all folks

Another sample of Small letter Zhuang to have some of its taste. To see the beauty of how Mind/Body/breathing all link into one. The rest of the Kuit, its applications......

on your own to research if you are interested...

It this the key to open the treasure house of SLT's mind/breathing/body ?

Or SLT is from Shao Lin?

Certainly your decision.

must warn you here.

Handle it with care because it could rise the qi to the top of the head.

anyone with hypetention watch out. This is about energy control not about testing for fun. If you raise the qi above the Tan Chung and don't know how to bring in down. you can be in trouble.

anyone with low blood pressure also watch out. if you sink to far and cause dizziness....

Thus a platform of relax and let go has to be in place, achive before anykind of energy control practice. otherwise it will not return to the original or reset state.

Thus those website Chan with fighting fighting I am number one... is absurd. relax and let go and selfless are the key to build this platfrom. Not just saying to bow to buddha but fill will attachment in mind and tension in the body....

Thus it said, Attain the Samadhi instantly "meet" the Amida Buddha This is ultimate method, (one) needs to take refuge to the Guru (patriach) Active or silence doesn't hinderance each other The buddha nature attain thus master.

As it was said, Thus Thus not moving is the real Ying Yang. .... NOt moving give raise to moving. One has to know about what is "not moving" before nature take its place and manifest....... it is a nature process. it is not a force full one.

It is about using tranquil to subdue incoming motion as the core. Not about going outward or with this and that hands technics. As it said "while application doesn't stick to any fix shape". it can takes White Crane shape sure....

Anything forcefull cause trouble....

A knive will cut both side if not handle properly. A laser blade should not be given to the kids to play. Emei keeps this for the monk only. Miau Shun didn't even purposely mention about it... Not about selfish but about... is one prepared in wisdom to handle what can heal and killed? Buddha or Great Demon King is just a slit of hair.

My opinion is that any one belive in SLT/SNT is from Shao Lin or Wu Dang or Hakka also post out their Kuit which one think it related to SLT. So that we all can look at all the possibility.

What do you think?

"The lineage : During the Southern Song Dynasty in 1227 AD a Wudang Daoist martial and medicinal priest named White Cloud, came to Emei's Golden Summit, became a Buddhist monk and eventually the Sudden Enlightenment abbot of the Hua Zang Temple. After writing the Precious Lotus Cannon and formulating the External Energy Diagnosis and Treatment System Samantabhadra came to him in a vision and told him to pass on his knowledge to the next generation to help rid the world of pain and suffering and to let the light of the lineage shine like the sun. Undisturbed for eight centuries the monastics who practiced this tradition enjoyed a peaceful co-existence with the natural radiance of Emei Mountain until WWII. During the war Master Yongxin passed the lineage onto Zhou Qianchuan who went to Shanxi, Province and opened an Emei clinic there. He taught the public for the first time in history ......"

THe kuit Which Zhou Qianchuan released turn out to have identical Stanzas with the SLT Kuit Yik Kam passed down... Thus, this system seems to leak out from emei decade or Hundred of years ago......

And Who is Miau Soon from west of Canton who claim the responsibility of creating SLT with "his own art" fusing with White Crane of Fujian?

It that an important question or no longer an important question?

Is it Miau himself purposely place the stanzas in the SLT Kuen Kuit ? hope that somedays, somehow, and someone will trace the root back to Emei... It is the art of Samantabhadra Boddhisatva the host of esoteric buddhist teaching....

" help rid the world of pain and suffering and to let the light of the lineage shine like the sun. ..."

without sun there is no spring.... Sun from Emei and Sun from Fujian... From Song to Qing, From Qing to Bruce Lee... From war to wars to ethernet .. From Energy control with Visualization to center line theory From most advance technics to simple sun chain punch Hunderds or years and billions of people has evol.... Linking the culture and civilization of Indian, Chinese, Tibet, and world wide.... the story of SLT ---- WCK.

Does Tan Sau Ng contribute? sure, to the red boat opera company. everyone has thier role and none is the greatest and none is missed out... it is a massive play of human history struggling for a better life...

Remember Dit da herbs fomulars? Those eight methods with legs......

They should make one with emei 12 zhuang and SLT...

as you know the switch focus to mai... the heat traveling.... the transform in to light and broken ligth. into emptiness.... beyond physical... the 9 states of achivements.... then the emptiness of beyond space and time... get back to Ommm... the illuminating and cristal like rainbow body

How Many Jings in SLT?

JIng in Chinese means the path of force. This is a very specific term which points to very specific things.

So it can't be just one type of path. Right?

Say People talk about Jing like Peng in Taiji. Or Reel silk JIng ......

So what are the SLT's Jings? what are the Jings one is cultivating?

Jing in my understanding is the dynamic flow of the force. The same middle punch explicitly can have different dynamic flow of force. And lik or force or structure are something static. So, at the dynamic flow state, the lik became actively flowing and the structure also become actively transforming to serve as a platfrom of this dynamic flow of force. All body vectors are align dynamicly due to the dynamic shifting of mind or Yee.

So how many type of Jings? IMHO, there are more then 12 due to a minimum of 6 straight paths combinations with 2 spiral path.....

IMHO, Thus I have heard,

the definition of Jing is "force with path". Fa Jing means " issueing force with certain path". Prerequisite of Fa Jing, one needs to ensure the path which will be using as the passage of the force is clear. IMHO, I like this definition better for now until I know better because Jing cannot be something mystical or something cannot be defined. How to cultivate in things which is not tangible? Can't. I personally never belive in "oh, this is the ancient original set, do it 100 times and you will be the best."

Thus, say structure, rooting.... there are certain path needs to be used. are they clear? can one really issuing force in this/these path....

Thus, imitating the external shape will not achive the same result as knowing which Jing is used.

For example, Yang TaiJi alone has atleast 20 types of JIng. with combination of path and the way how the force issue within the path. IMHO, if these type of jings are not understood and know. there is no way of bounce or control the oponent. At least, with Yang invincible, that is how much details Yang get into.

If the Qing royal family knows Yang Invicible's art, my question is how does the so called Shao Lin based jing type match up to this 20 or more types of JIng?

IMHO, the generally so called WCK Shao Lin Jing type is not as refine compare with the Taiji jing type. Thus, based on the content of jings, I never belive people's claim of the original advance martial art created from shao lin named as WCK disregard even Mao Zee Tong say so.

if SLT doesn't have a content as great or better then other's technology which has appeared in Qing Dynasty such as the Yang TaiJi. Certainy, one can belive what one belive and it is perfectly alright and acceptable. However, the question remaind is how can the such Shao Lin Tai Zu type of Jing defeat those Qing Technology? The answer is up to everyone's belive and it can be anything from Shao Lin has secret...... to WCK is the best..... But, I still belive one cannot fight Laser and neuclear weapon technology with TNT explosive. It is ok to make claim. but does one has the technology?

So, how many jing are they in SLT/SNT or first section of SLT of Yik Kam? That is the interesting questions. If we think WCK is invicible if other promote WCK is from Shao Lin..... we all have to answer that question honestly. Sure I can pulled my Hung Mun Salutation and code in 1850, but I can't bail myself out if my art is not par with the Qing. Imho,

explosive is a type of fajing. But most of the time fajing is effortless... it is like the butcher disassemble the cow without wearing butcher knife. it just adaptive, non resistance, slide through and cut deep and clean..

wrist snapping is a motion. However, there are atleast two different path can be used for issues in this motion even it loooks similar....

That atleast two different path guarentee the "flow" , "clean", " not against"... and adaptive....

water surface of a lake can goes any and everywhere when it's was hit. but it won't against..... that is the beauty of SLT's Jings.

past is past never will it come back. Be it the Red Boat or.....

Now, we have the technology to help us get deep into the practice of SLT. What one needs are: 1, digital themal meter which can record temperature vesus time. 2, digital breathing counter which can record breathing in time/Min 3, EEG brain wave monitor which can record one's brain wave.

The thermal meter will show if qi got generated and pass to finger tip.

The breathing counter will show if the breathing and the alignment of the spine is proper that the deep breathing goes under 6 breath per min which imply the movement is relax and natural.

The EEG will show if one get into alpha and then TheTa.

How difficult is to check the Qi generation and passage? how difficult is to check if one's get into tranquil mind state and natural movement via breathing? how difficult is to "know" cast off the limiting thought and return to the true emptiness when one enter into the "deep" or Theta?

Not difficult to measure with the high tech garget. this is better then the Mouth Transmiting face to face.

In mouth and face I don't usual trust. IN digital data colection I always do.

How far can your SLT takes you? It is not difficult to know. Time to go real.. not by myth but by digital and biofeedback.

SLT goes high tech part I: Mind/breathing/ body. Wait until part II: measuring of Jings......

If we can measure we can reproduce and synthesis..... Are you ready? We have come along way baby.

This is just to return to nature as the ancestors perscribe. and nothing wrong using high tech gear to quantitatively synthesis one.

as for the grapplers and muay thai, wait until they see the next generation WCk people.

Why should we fight in the ground? why should we exchange force with force? why should I fight in you paradigm.

welcome to WCK spider web paradigm.... WCK means you touch me you got hit. you come close you get stick, disarm, and nail... and you are not alow to touch me. remember in ancient china Lady is not suppose to be touch?

It is not WCK philosophy or principle. it is we need a stronger training monitor. dummy need to be inteligent now. It is Matrix era

Often, we speak of Qi kung or Doing SLT/SNT as Qi kung.

Actually, there is a different between Qi kung and Cin (quiet) (physically still meditation) and Dong (move) (physical moving meditation) kung.

IMHO, the SLT/SNT is related to Cin/Dong Kung not Qi kung. Certainly, Cin/Dong kung using the Qi/ medirians terminology, however, they are different kind of training. Wing Chun and Qigong are two different subjects analogy to Unix and operating system. IMHO, it is not true. if you read Tao De Ching you know Cin is the key of Daoist. Both Daoist and Buddhist use Cin as a method of training. The Daoist said "entering to Cin" the Buddhist said "let go" they are both the same thing in the begining until a later state (read Surangama sutra if interested in the different and similarity).. Cin is the common path of both Buddhism and Daoism. that is the key to enter into Samadhi.

As for Qi kung, qi kung is a new term which starts around 1900.

In internal art training, internal means "to go within", IMHO, there are two types of technics to "return to origin" when dealing with cultivation. one is the method of "transportation" of Qi. The other one is the method of " let go" and "forget" the Yee. however, both has to based on capability of to be Cin's or quiet's .

Today, IMHO, most of the time, people define the practice of "transportation" is qi kung. this is a different practice compare with the ancient daoist way where Cin is place as the begining and key to advance. "Transportation " is practiced naturally after Cin is achive. thus, today, lots of people fall into "forcefull" use of Yee to "push" the qi for transportation catagory. this type of training can cause problem if the path forced is erro. as the cin training, it is a "reset" and let nature take its path training. so at the worst of Cin based training, one will not get the kung fu if one does it wrong, and no side effect as the transportation type.

as an example, The Hung Gar iron wire cannot be SLT because SLT starts with Cin platform and iron wire doesn't.

Thus, SLT using the Lay Lau Hui Song.... type of Kuit. and Hung Gar iron wire application is different. SLT is a type of "reset" and let nature take its path type of training.

Different Tee (body of art) shows different young (application of art). One can use the same stance, hand shapes.... but it is different...

years ago, a Hung Gar grandmaster speak of WCK , saying something like Hung Gar has all his own opinion, which imho it is absurd. he fails to understand the core of SLT and the details of internal cultivation. IMHO.

In additional, months ago when people post that the chan way link with "figthing". that also is a wrong path due to ,"no self" or entering into Cin is the key, "figthing or no fighting" is a differentitation mind. one doesn't enter into Dao or samadhi with concept of differentitation mind --- fighting. one enters into dao with cin.

thus, as the stanza in chan said

 figthing is a mind of win and lost

that is against dao that give raise to the diffirentiation of me, you, race, and time how is that can one into proper samadhi?

as it also said,

 right or not right,

wrong or not wrong, missed a spilt of inch will lost thousand of miles."

Cho Family and Yik Kam

There is a different between Cho family WCK and Yik Kam's WCK.

Cho family wck has different Nam Kuen component involved which even include CLF. This was introduced at Cho Dak Seng Time. In Cho family we even have a set name as CLF. Some people in the family even change the salutation of WCK with CLF component. some even asked me if there exist two sets of SLT..... So, that is a part of evolution of Cho family.

However, Yik Kam SLT is passed to Cho Soon by Yik Kam at red junk time. and that is the core or seed of Cho family WCK. Cho Soon is the father of Cho Dak Seng. Who is the student of Yik Kam and both of them are actors.

Thus, if you noticed. I use the term Yik Kam SLT when there is related to White Crane and Emei 12 zhuang.

That is to differentiate.... I prefer to strickly go by book (kuen kuit) on what is passed down by Yik Kam instead of go by legend.

Since Cho Soon and Yik Kam were indeed Hung Mun at their time and involve with Taiping. With the code in salutation ... to proof or as evident. Indeed the code has similarity to the one in Dien Chun Dang of Shang Hai. Certainly, there are stories of Shao Lin, and every set of Cho means a different style...... and the CLF actually is a combination of Mok Kar and CLF.......

On another hand, The Yik Kam SLT involve into the legacy of indoor student. For generation, Cho family let this set out very cautiously. Since Cho family is a martial art family who teaches martial art for many many decade in China. Many student learn only the set contribute by Cho Dak-Seng and not the 4 section SLT. That is all what I can said. Other is family business. As you know, chinese is conservative.

As for what sifu Wong Kiew-kit did. Since I havent seen him for 25years. I have not yet ask him how is his interpretion of my sifu's art. Eventhought, I went back to Penang every few years lately and meet with some of my older sihengs.

I know sifu Wong Kiew-kit is a great master of Shao Lin, Hung Kuen, and TaiJi..... He also master of advance Hung gar set like the Iron wire. so it is his will to inteplate what he knows as he likes it. I respect him but in certain situation, such as, I disagree with him that FaKuen is the core of WCK. And also, I bring up The name of Cho Soon while he and the chapter of Complete WC of Robert, Rene, and Y Wu missed out.

MHO, I see his "interpretation" of WCK. closer to Hung Gar mix taiji then WCK.

1, I think using the "cover " for the Horn attack is not taking the advantage of the horn is an outer circle attact. well, for me, i will take advantage of it go piecing throught to the center line. instead of going out even further outside the outside circle to do the defence.... that is no longer swallow.... but can be losing potential and timing....

2, I think his side body angle attact on the picture after the cover.... is too far from the oponent. that left the opponent to change. I myself prefer to stick in and leave no room to the opponent who did the horn punch.

My sifu uses the type of stance in the salutation as in the following article if you want to have a feel of how in general my sifu did it in fighting....

As my late sifu Cho Hung-Choy said, every man has his will. Or Yang Kok Yau Chee. I prefer to go by book of Yik Kam but I respect everyone's free will. Nothing right or wrong but everyone is different.

just for a different way of doing things, as the example of sifu Wong Kiu-kit defence on the Horn punch using cover... in above's pictures. I will walk in close with an angle with a Ying bil jee to hit the center line ... without caring the horn punch, rather then move backward and cover...

The closest between two points is a straight line, as it said in Kuen Kuit "Fong Hoong Jek Yap " ( when there is opening go in direct) and move back might lost a step... That is my belive. Sifu Wong has a way of more circular and I like spiral within straigh and keep close. different people different intepretation.

Certainly, the lower stances, the side stance.... are used on different occation, since Cho family has lots of sets for different aplications... since this low stance is needed otherwise it is incomplete...

Hung Mun and Tai Tzu Kuen

If I am not wrong, in the new Kung Fu maganize. A person who is Taiwan Hung Mun related is introducing the Hung Mun Martail art which link to TaiTzu not Wing Chun or Weng Chun.

Shao Lin Long form from Tai Tzu.

A DNA sample.... from a book by Shong Shan Shao Lin disciple.

You see, there might also be a connection between Taiwan and Tien Chun Dang of Shang hai....

One of the scholar of Taiwan Nan Huai_jing also shown up in a Hung Mun book... So there is alots of information....

By the way, the kuen they practiced is a Big Open Big Close type if I am not wrong. This is a different Flatform, IMHO, to SLT which is small.... Let's see How SAVI prove to us about these paradigm shift from BIG to SMALL. And why still the TaiWan Hung Mun practiced the BIg type today? Let's see how SAVI explain this. Savi might have a great point. May be just may be Savi will say his art was belongs to higher position people in Hung Mun. And then Savi shows his Hung MUn Code to prove it. That is a very reasonable way.

The Tai Ping Lost to General Zhen Kuo-Fan of Qing. That shows how much the belive and technics of the Tai Ping can last. So Qing won in the real fight. "Shaolin and Wing Chun informative... "

We know the founder of Hung Mun and his potrait... the location of Hung Fa Ting (Turn out to be in my home town county in China ) also, with the information of when Hung Mun Starts and the list of where and when on Hung Mun activity branch.....

Now, it is your time to show what is the so called new paradigm shift invented in Hung Fa Ting which is in the back yard of my home town?

Fujian White Crane invention time surpassed the Founded of Hung FA Ting. It is an evident fact.

So where did Tan Sau Ng get his mighty Tan Sau? Nothern Shao Lin? How is Tan Sau Ng from the Northern Shao Lin with Shao Lin Long Fist DNA expert in the Fujian White Crane Water shape hand --- Tan Sau? How does Tan Sau is the ultimate hand where it is only one of five hand shape of White CRane of Fujian?

Certainly you can still arque to dimissed all these evidents by the scholars and historian of Taiwan and China that your version is the original and true one. But, you need to show evidents now. otherwise, it is just speculation without proof.

Certainly, i expect to see a new version of His-story to "explain" the legend. But, as IMHO concern. the more one makes history the more one get into traping oneself.

As one junior who think he knows it all on Chan. and at one point question me on everything... once asked me to lay my cards. See, These here are only very little of Cards... how many card will he be able to match? How many can he match even just a few which I had lay open for the past few weeks?

I don't blame on the older generation who is not as literate due to war time of china.

But for young generation what I can say is " naive". IMHO, people needs to learn and read more Chinese clasical. Playing around with pronounciation and slang term such as Kong Wu... is not going to get one very far in studying Chinese. Not to mention Chinese Martial art history and DNA. And the most importanting, don't ever ask other to Change thier ancestors wihtout even knowing and get the evident for sure about one's own acestors.

"The Tiandihui began when Zheng Kai (known primarily as Ti Xi but with numerous aliases including Monk Wan, Monk Hong Er, etc.), Li Amin (a boxing master), Zhu Dingyuan, and Tao Yuan left their homes in Zhangpu, Fujian to seek better lives in Sichuan. There, they joined a group of “monks” led by Ma Jiulong who practiced magic and exorcism. The group did not fair well, however, and Ti Xi soon went to Guangdong and organized a group of followers in Huizhou. In 1761, Ti Xi returned home to Fujian and took up residence in the Guanyinting (Goddess of Mercy Pavillion) and transformed his group of followers into the society known as Tiandihui.

By 1766, the Tiandihui had spread through Zhangpu and Pinghe counties, and by 1767, one of the early members, Lu Mao, created a brotherhood for what may have been the first Tiandihui uprising. Their plan was to engage in theft (robbing storehouses, treasuries, and homes of the well do to) in order to raise money for their rebellious activities. In 1768, the time finally came for their uprising and they attacked the western gate of the county seat, but were easily defeated by the local guard.

Li Amin followed this uprising by forming a society to rob wealthy households and rise up in 1769. Before they could complete their uprising, however, they were discovered and executed. Ti Xi was said to have lain low following this, until he passed away in 1779, handing down the register of his society to his son, Zheng Ji, who later became a monk.

As the Tiandihui spread through different counties and provinces, it branched off into many groups and became known by many names. Along with its increasingly complex rituals, it also developed a rich, legendary, back-story, filled with allegory, symbolism and numerology that served to inspire recruits and lend direction to the movement. The story held that the Tiandihui/Hongmen’s roots traced back to the Shaolin Temple, betrayed by jealous Qing officials after they helped the dynasty suppress the Xilufan (Western Barbarian) revolt. The temple burned down, the monks scattered, five survivors met with Ming loyalists at the Honghua Ting (Hung Fa Ting, Vast or Red Flower Pavilion), and received a sign from Heaven to “fan Qing fu Ming” (“fan Ching Fook Ming”, “overthrow the Qing and restore the Ming”).

By referencing an apocryphal Fujian Shaolin Temple and its warrior monks (molded from Tang dynasty accounts of Songshan, Henan Shaolin), feigning connections to Buddhist societies (from tales of the Bailian (White Lotus), and Yuan Dynasty Qing Lian (Green Lotus) and Wuwei (Motionless) Societies), and weaving in fictitious Song or Ming scion, they created a compelling counter-culture where the disenfranchised could seek some measure of pride, self-empowerment, and political significance. They also swelled their ranks and motivated their followers."

n the new book I get. Ti xi was the second generation.

Turn out that Wan last name is a gang of Sao An Fujian (hope that I don't related to. Ha ha ha). This gang take last name Wan after they join the gang. So after Ming fall, they join Cheng Sin-gong...

and Dao Choong is the 5th of this gang and become a monk later.

Then later Tixi comes by......

whatever it is no sign of martial art evolution in Hung Fa Ting....

In 1854, Liu Duchuan (Lao Doo-Chuen), brother of Guangdong Three Harmonies Society member and Shanghai Xiaodaohui (Siu Do Wui, Small Knife Society) leader, Liu Lichuan (Lao Lee-Chuen), was sent back to Guangdong (which had been charged with paying 80.6% of the Opium War reparations) to help organize an uprising in support of the Taiping. In June, He Liu (Ho Lok), a smuggler and society member whose brother had been murdered in a prefectural purge, began to raise a band of men in search of vengeance. Helped by Liu Yingcai (Lao Ying-Choi), he prepared to attack the Dongguan county seat.

They moved on Stone Dragon town. Thirty thousand members and six hundred boats worked towards the goal of “taking down the Dragon, lifting the tiger, stopping the goat, bowing the Buddha, and reaching the Western paradise.” In this code, dragon signified the Stone Dragon, tiger the Tiger Gate, goat the Goat City (Guangzhou), Buddha the Buddha Mountain (Foshan), and Western Paradise the province of Guangxi.

He Liu’s uprising began a chain reaction through the region, and on June 11, 1854, Chen Kai (Chan Hoi) and Liu Duchuan lead 7000 Three Harmonies Society members to revolt in Foshan. On June 12th, members of the Precious Jade Flower Union, under the direction of Li Wenmao, took to the streets in full costume, waving red banners. A few hundred at first, within a few days, tens of thousands of common people joined as well, showing their allegiance with red turbans. And the Hongjin (Hung Gam, Red Turban) Rebellion was born.

The rebels burned the Qing offices, and on July 4, took control of the town and ushered in the Daning (Dai Ning, Great Peace). Their troops came to be known as the Hong Bing (Hung Bing, Vast Army), with Chen Kai as the Chen Nan Wang (Chan Nam Wong, Subdue the South King) and Li Wenmao as his second.

Hill bandits soon began to move on the Guangdong capitol, Guangzhou. On July 14, Kan Xian, who had previous started a revolt in Huayan, assaulted the north gate. He Liu marched to join them, and from Panyu, Red Turbans camped on the Manchu parade grounds outside the east gate. Bannermen and local militia defended the city. On August 19 and 24, Chen Kai and Li Wenmao tried to crush the militia forces between Foshan and Guangzhou but failed. Soon thereafter, rebel infighting began to take its toll. By September 5, He Liu pulled out, by September 7, the siege began to falter, and by November 5, it broke."

Here I have a picture for you from my Hung Mun book.

In this picture it is said "

Hung Mun (Tien Tee Hui) source from Fujian's Sao An Chang Lin Temple. That was the time of Qing emperor Kang Xi year of 13th (1674). Monk Dao Chong is the host united and found the Tien Tee Hui or so called Hung Mun's " HUng FA Ting united. This is a picture of Dao Chong.

See, people have found where is the source of Tien Tee Hui or Hung Fa Ting.

And, if you look at the white crane from Fujian. it was founded at between 1644 and 1662. by Fang Chi-Niang at fujian Fu Ning. At 1683, Bai Cieh of Taiwan bring the inch jing method of Fujien White crane back to China.

So, the question is how Fukien White Crane was to blossom from the Hung Fa Ting? Since THe Hung Mun was found in 1674 which is later then 1644 - 1662? And White Crane of Fujan is founded by Fang Chi-Niang.

What is the paradigm shift of martial art in the Chang Lin temple (Long forest temple) of Sao An ?

By the way, my home town in Fujian from my dad side is happen to be Sao An. And in Sao An no one practice Siu Lin Tau. Beside me when I went back for visit

Dao jong last name is Cheong or Zhang. He was a native of Sao An. Not from the northern province....

He is not a Ming official. He join Cheng Sin-Gong after the falling of Ming with his other "brother from brotherhood" of Sao An Fujian.

As for Chu Hung Cuk.... it is a make up....

As for martial art, no evidents...... His temple is Chang Lin (long forest) then move to Fong San (pheonix mountain)....

Here is a picture of copy of writing in the tomb of Dao Jong.

As for the relationship of White Crane from Fujian with WCK. now one has to explain..... As I said, the center line theory is from White Crane. so where is the paradigm shift? White Crane is preceed Hung Fa Ting....

Tien Tee Yan is from Iching. how is that buddhist?

Center line theory with the combination of Sun hand has cast the DNA in stone for WCK.

back to the question again. So what is the uniqueness of SLT ?

Where is the small and post structure comes from? as Jim also ask?

my answer, imho, is you all see the small letter zhuang pictures a few days ago.

Again, IMHO, why is people emphasis Gee Sim so much that Ng Mui is being ignore? in the legend, Ng Mui is the Crane master . she survived the ambush of Shao Lin... Gee Sim did not.

Now, it seems that some how, Gee Sim become a now a day "one stop shoping" master. Gee Sim has it all.

Soon he becomes a YUGi OH master.... (sigh) if no evidents presented and continous to speculate.

I am not against anyone or any style or any lineage. IMHO, just for discussion. To be honest, I found some sifus one generation older sometimes is not as literate and mixing up story. Can't blame them for they were trying their best.

However, are we going to continous on the mis communication they makes?

we have seen the potrait even for Dao Jong or Hung Mun. we can lock the place and time of Hung Fa Ting. We have seen the preserve teaching of White Crane Bubishi. We have seen the preserve teaching of Shao LIn. We have seen the preserve teaching of emei. .... We even have seen the documentation of General Qih Qi-Kuan of Ming Dynasty.

To be real honest, there is another can of worm from Ming Dynasty martial art which I can open. But I am not going to do so now... do we have the data? yes. we have it.

Now, it is just an interpolation. there are data of the pre and post era..... IMHO

Now, still no one shows us a picture of Chesim, a kuen kuit of Chesim.. beside Hung Gar related.

it is a simple even as i see, imho, no need to get into Ming dynasty, General Chen Sin-Kung, Hung Fa Ting, Yat Nim...... when one cut throught everthing. there is not much stunning new invention or revolution but evolution.

ou know, seriously. I don't really care for my theory or whose theory as soon as it makes sense to help me and everyone to live better.

name, lineage.... doesn't matter. The content that can help us be more balance, healty, and have a better life is most importanting.

Yik Kam is in TaiPing and Hung Mun. The Hung Mun code is there.. But then, I sometimes look at the Taiping as a cult. A cult that end up alots of people who belive in it dies..... In the name of GOD all sin was carried out. Do we want that? Ofcause not.

To be honest, there is much to translate into english. and some needs experience. only after one has experienced them, one can translate it properly without get trap into a chinese/english translation... But then, you need to be employed first. We all have to bring bread to the table. My form actually is not far different from your as soon as the Kundalini (let's use anything you can related to) is triggle. But then my form will not be yours. because only me can do mine and you can do yours.

Certainly, the form comes with details description.....

Say there is a saying " Bil Jee is poison and use it in emergency" is in the second section of the YK SLT. The third section are about close range.....

But then, no big deal, everyone's form is original. Be it Ip Man's, YKS', Koo Loo.....

As the chinese saying, " Hero doesn't depend on DNA, the man has to work hard and self responsible on oneself".

For me, one cannot sell ancestors.

I once heard the MIT professor told me the Space travel Museum is just a Tomb. Space travel belongs to now and future. it is alive not dead and lying in tomb.

Museum doesnt turn me on. Technology does. Matrix does. TaiPing doesn't. the very lifely and energetic Hsu Chi does. And, the rigid fomulars for fighting don't. IMO.

for me, there is only art with/without life. original or the oldest doesn't matter. if people understand my bottom line. adding more steps.... in a set does nothing. if the set doesn't have life.

one doesn't do form. one just express oneself's capability with form.

SLT techno

Why do there is a need of the six directional force? Why do TaiJi need Peng Why do Yee Chuan need the "figthing" force?

A ball foat in the water always has force vectors from up, down , left, right , forward, and backward. be it at dynamic or static.

In the water, without feel this six direction force, can one master the track of one's action?

The three synchronize Since the brought out of the body structure.... Root .....

Eventhough not exactly wholesome, Certain part of external three synchronize hand vesus feet, elbow vesus knee, shoulder... are mention.

Then, afte the external three synchronize, it will proceed to the internal three synchronize Yee,,, Qi,,,, Jing....

Are these necessary? Yes, if one want to synchronize the mind/body into one pice. IMHO.

Do you synchronize while doing Set?

It is Shin (heart) harmonies with Yee, Yee harmonies with Qi, Qi harmonies with Li (power).

There is silence the Heart to train Qi, Silence the Yee to train Shen which is the tee. the Heart syncronize Yee, the Yee syncronize Qi, and the Qi syncronize Li (force) . is the prepare for Young ( application) ... so different....

DO you clamp your knees while doing YJKYM? if so why? if no why not?

Song, IMHO, i called it no tension state insteat of Relax. since it has no tension but it is not diffuse and scatering.

There lie the DNA of an art. Whether it is Hard bow or Soft internal...

Song, Some belive when it is song, one sink one's body weight to the ground. Thus, there is rooting.

Song, Some belive the body should have a slight or strong feeling of Weight.

Song, Some belive one will feel the horce or stance is tensing, weight singking to the legs. Since it is rooting and this is a correct way.

Song, Some belive if the stance still feel "powerfull" sinking as describe above. it not Song. and the body breaking into two section, the top and bottom are not wholely integration.

Song, Some belive it is similar to silk floating in the air sligthly waving with the breath of inhale and exhale.

Song, some belive it is similar to a sky scraper with structure standing but full of empty space within the sky scraper where wind can feely passed by the whole sky scraper..


So what is song for you? and how to get there? IMHO,

What is for me?

silk floating in the air sligthly waving with the breath of inhale and exhale.

How to get there?

similar to a sky scraper with structure standing but working to acquite empty space within the sky scraper by moving out tension in every floor. Then , the wind can feely passed by the whole sky scraper.. But no weight should sink to everywhere in the structure. otherwise, it is stagnated...

How does it feel?

Feel how silk floating in the air. it levitate, stretch freely.... light weight.. the chan saying says " one threat of silk will not clink." and how is Theta feel? the body like silk and the mind in theta... the deep...

Without close to this, even healing will not take place.... not to mention the dynamic application...

But then attach to forcefully or intentionally finding this will create worst tension in mind and body.

My belief

Without, vision, method, feeling. or positive expectation, accountblity of process, and positive feedback,

But just a word "relax", it can't get there.

But then, how much does it cost to have to learn this ancient chinese secret?

move the storage out from each and every floor of the sky scapper.. let the wind blown throught... then one is there tonight. dont have to waite until tomorrow..... remember it is not dumping the storage good to the basement .....

While praticing the Wu and Fook routine in SLT/SNT, or as in some lineage called it Sam Bai Fut. Some are practicing this part for a long time....

IMHO, there are concepts of Yee, Ying Yang medirian's flow, .. and six direction resultant force..... involved in the practice of SLT/SNT.

So, What do you pay attention to when you slowly practice this part of SLT/SNT? what do you expect to gain from this practice?

IMHO, for me,

The different between a tree and a sun in the sky is that the sun float with the resultance force from 6 directions: up down, left right, forward backward, and still travel with it's track. Some call the six direction force Peng. some call the six direction force Fighting force. some call the six direction force Sun potential.........

The tree stand there sinking it's root to the deep earth and never be able to travel.... A tree is better then a wood standing resting mounting to a wall. but it is not a break in the join when applied force.

with the sun, the wu and fook travel.....

"As it say's K1 is not the root and Dan dien is not the control. the willow spine flexibility such as not a bone, one hands spreading it is a thousand hand....."

the only way to achieve a thousand hand is in the domain of Yee........... the body decay but the yee never touch by the aging.....

Possible WCK origins working Model

Here is my view. I think there are serval things needs to be getting the DNA.

I am going to present the following topic. I know some people will not like it and will start attacking me or my lineage. However, that doesn't matter. Because we all has to show evidents and be professional.

I won't say I am the most correct one as usual. I dis- claiming I represent the whole WCK. or the original......

But I can represent what I have found. Since my lineage is from Yik Kam and Yik Kam is a Chern Tan of Red boat and Cho Soon is a Siu Moo. The conncetion of Yik Kam and Cho Soon might be or might be not applied to other Red boat artists.

However, if anyone's ancestors is working in the red boat, chances is big that they all are from the same group of people such as Lee Man-Mau. We all are the decendent of the first Opera Artist revolution of China. Which we can take pride of.

1, conncetion on Taiping and Hung Mun.

A, It is evidentally that the Yik Kam and Cho family involved in the Taiping.

we can cross Check this:

From the slogan in Dien Chun Tong, The Slogan of Choy Lee Fut. (Since Choy Lee Fut also involved in the Taiping and Hung Mun. )and the Slogan of Yik Kam. (aside of the salutation which involved the Hung Mun saying and the gesture of " Opera Artists" of the Red Boat.) These all point to the connection of Taiping revolution.

In addition, Hung Siew-Chien visited Poon Yee, the location of Cho family the year before the evoke of the Taiping revolution.

Disregard how some one tryies to put down the Yik Kam or Cho lineage. And some might claiming myth such as-----" the high level people won't write down..." The above cross check of three different source can proof that it is not that case.

We should invite those who belive thier lineage to be the top leader involved in the Taiping/Siao Dao hui period of revolution to show thier evidents. So they have a good chance to raise thier evident and voice.

I would love to know more about thier evidents that i can learn more about them. So, provide Evident. Under Evident everyone is equal.

B, Hung Mun conncetion before Taiping era

There might be a possibility of Hung Mun connection before the Taiping era. However, one needs to provide evident to proof this possibilities. Until there is an evident which is solid to be cross check. Nothing is certain.

2, The Shao Lin WCK connection.

a, From the stand point of Legend.

According to legend, The burning of Shao Lin temple is belive to be around early 1700. After the burning, the monks or nuns fleets and there are five poeple..... It is said that WCK related to Ng Mui and there is monk Chi Sim who is the abbort of Shao Lin...

This is a legend which we don't know it is true or not. However, if one accept Chi Sim exist then one has to accept Ng Mui also exist. Chi Sim cannot exist without Ng Mui. Otherwise this legend will not exist.

Legend also said the Creation of WCK is after the burning of Shao Lin by Ng Mui or Miu Soon. Legend also said, the martial art of Ng Mui is White CRane which she created it is no longer Shao Lin.

If there is a claim of WCK was created at Shao LIn before the burning. There needs martial art DNA Evident to prove WCK was created before the burning of Shao Lin in the Evergreen Hall or Hung Fa Ting.

The exist of any Shao Lin temple in Southern China doesn't automatically represent the Creation of WCK in that Shao Lin or its hall. DNA evident is needed.

b, Tan Sau Ng and WCK

We all know how Tan Sau Ng's connection to the Opera and contribute great things. However, we need evident to close this gap. we need to compare DNA of Cheung NG's martial art to SLT. Particulary the Tee and Yong. That is the old Chinese way of chatagorized art. One can argue that WCK is the creation of Evegreen Hall of Shao Lin. That can be true. But again, Some one has to provide evidents of DNA.

In addition, White Crane Eng Chun of Fujian exist around 1650. When does Tan Sau NG or Evergreen Hall created the WCK? What is the DNA of Tan Sau Ng's art?

It is also illogical to belive there is Tan Sau Ng and Chi Sim exist but Ng Mui is not existing. Again, if Chi Sim exist Ng Mui must exist. if all of them exist then Tan Sau Ng's art has to be different then Ng Mui even may be Tan Sau Ng might be the great martial artist from Shao Lin. This is Because, Remeber, in the legend Ng Mui Created the White CRane? Tan Sau Ng can be the siheng of Ng Mui. They can both from Shao Lin.... But Tan Sau Ng cannot be Ng Mui. If NG Mui exist then Yim Wing Chun has to exist. Otherwise it doesnt make sense because. Ng Mui is the sifu of Yim Wing Chun right?

C, What SLT was created with

SLT is the core of WCK, the Praise the spring.

We now know WCK share White Crane Wing Chun of Fujian's DNA. Tan Sau is the water shape. PAk SAu is the fire shape. and we also share the Zee Moo Concept . and the Couplet or two hands combination DNA of White Crane.

As for Yik Kam's SLT, with strong writen and movement evidents. Yik Kam's SLT was created with White Crane and Emei 12 zhuang. As it was recorded Miu Soon created this. The Yik Kam lineage DNA comparison with 12 zhuang and white crane DNA has proven it is a fact. This again might or might not apply to other lineage. However, this can be used as a reference if needed.

In addition, Miu Soon also was mentioned in YKS lineage. and Ku Lao (sp?) also admited that thier pole technics is from Emei's Penetrating Cloud Umblela.

(Again, one can said the Yik Kam SLT is a Chop Sue. Sure it is a Crane of Fujian and Snake of Emei Chop Sue. If one likes to look at it that way.

However, People who claim different or thier is the complete system should provide the Evident of thier belive. They might be right. But DNA evident is needed.

Otherwise, How can we know it is a Kangaroo and croc Chop Sue from overseas or the Buddha Delight dish from Putian ? )

4, what language was used:

Language signature can play a critical part in the research. Chinese always speak thier own dialect and each dialect in the written form has signature.

As an example, the white Crane eng chun's writing was written in Fujian. So, to decide if a certain things are related to White Crane of Fujian or not one can check the language used. Are there any Fujian term?

Again, as a human being, I cannot be perfect and stand for correction.

I am running across my family documents last night.

Another important element in the search of WCK root.


Since Medicine is very important part of a martial art system. Tracing the Medicine path will also say lots about things. IMHO

It is not 5 element palms. It is 5 catagories of hand technics. 5 catagories of hand technics consist of 5 different types of potential. This is the basic of White Crane hand technics. It is not Sun Fist it is the potential of Sun. Zhuang in the ancient chinese means "way with multi-directions or which can travel to every direction"

So, Emei 12 Zhuang can means the Emei's 12 path way to every direction. The Emei 12 zhuang's cultivation is based on soft and gradual or Rou.

this practice will exercesising every joins (or part ) of the whole body and its Qi flow of the related medirians on every movement.

So for every movement, the whole body is linking into one pice and each section of joins (or parts) of the body is adaping and moving softly, gradually, like snake moving

Emei 12 zhuang is a collection of 12 different sets of training. From the basic mother training, the Heaven set, to sitting meditation. It is a group of training from moving meditation to sitting meditation. From physical to spiritual, there are nine level of training.

Within the Emei 12 Zhuang there is a Small Zhuang. Which is practicing by standing in an equal shoulder stance for the most part..and pay attention into the details....... HS

When it exercises and link the physical, the Breathing, the Qi, The visualization , and the intention. Using Buddha nature as the platform, Daoist natural as the method of training, TCM as the human model, and Esoteric Buddism's Visualization technics as method of mind/intention training.

What do you think we should name it? Internal? external? or it is beyond internal or external?

the heaven is high, the earth is vast, there are lots and lots of "technology" and high civilization developed in Ancient China. We have to learn to be humble to sort all these things out.

I am very glad to luckily found out the Yik Kam SLT based on the 12 zhuang. The reason? SLT has the "technology". Eventhought, it might be apply or not to other lineages. with the existing link between SLT and 12 zhuang, we know. Advance technology is not just a slogan. It is a fact can be reach. There should be alots of advance people in Red boat beside Yik Kam. It is not about how great Yik Kam lineage. It is about what to contribute to all WCK family to make everyone great.

The Bottom line, we all are decendent from the Red Boat Opera Artists who once upon a time are Siheng-dais and put thier life in the line for a better future of China. Sure they sacrified, but their hope for a better future and the dream of be able to Praise the beautiful spring time in a peacefull home is the treasure for all of us.

Personally, IMHO, the origin of root of WCK is not as importand for me. The spirit of positive, hope, and constructive grow is what I hold high. And Positive, hope, constructive grow is the sping in our heart. With this, even the coldest winter or the most depressing opium war era doesn't matter. Because with the positive, hope... all will know the future will be and can be better.

It expanded to about a better life and future, beyonds the narrow limit of just a martial art and " I am number one I am the best... type of limited thought.. " that is no self. that is Chan.

As A Chan Patriach wrote :

When Spring returns to earth, the myriad things are born. Smashing empty space to pieces. One is free and at ease. One will never again become attached. to self and others. Althought the Dharma Realm is vast, one can encompass it all. --- Ven. Hsuan Hua -Hs

It has to be Zhuang or "the path which can bring one to any direction" ( the translation of Zhuang is classical chinese) to generate the Jings. Not just a horse stance.

Potential of sun, not sun fist, is one of the oldest potential of White Crane, is similar to sun in the sky where it can adapt to 6 direction of in coming force and shield oneself. The core of SLT's centering.

There is a story of Wang Xian-Cai fighting the White Crane and Draw. IMHO, if that is true. then The potential of Sun should have a great contribution to it.

Today, even alots of White CRane has no longer mention it. This signature too help to determine before when the set was done...

Starts similar with the 12zhuang..... Equal shoulder..... transforms as needed... to clamp the yang and raise the ying.. then .... as it is....

Becarefull, Zhuang and Horse stance might or might not be the same things....

which fa kuen? how many Fa kuen are there in WCK? Why is it a WCK? Some says it is the origin from Shao Lin some says it is the teaching of Ng Mui.

some did it as CLF some did it as Hung Kuen....

I don't see there is a kuen, I don't see there is a stance. There are only flower of the tide Under the traveling red boat according to Cho Dak Sheng...

What if the 36 of SLT related stuffs has to do with 3x the 12 medirians. But not those Buddhist .... Hahaha. "what has been modified is the bowing"

There are Taizhu.... There are white crane.... There are Tashen.....

There also a saying " lowering the head bend the waist the transmision in not advance."

white crane bow?

is it hum hung or sow hung?

How do we know which is which? LOL.

To vibrate, one end needs to be station, one end needs to... to create standing wave....... As it describes, gentlely subdue the enemy, within split of an inch.. Hero is undefeatable, He knows others and others not knowing him....

Find the 6 directions resultant force as in Yee Chuan. . .....the sun... the silk floating in the sky....the tidal wave in the sea....

gentlely subdue ....simple....a vision , an effortless act.... a dream ...a fantasy... or a reality?

what do you think?

What is tendon changing?

The doors of Dharma of Hati and the Dharma of Rupa might not always cross.

To attain Buddha nature is about letting go. To create is about hold up and description of details.

Even Meditate Need a specific method once a specific goal is set.

Tao is every where but Goal is specific.

How can one bring the idea to the physical realm without specific details but pointing to general term such as "meditate" ?

Letting go and holding up are two opposite direction. Don't be confused pointing at mountain direction when others want to go to ocean.

Without clearly experience the path how can one shows the direction?

Muscle/Tendon Changing and Marrow/Brain Washing. Yoga streching and Kundalini. By the way, conserve the reproduction essense and fill up the Marrow....

The Jing of Wing chun

what do you think about the characterisics of Wck jing? Is it a single vector type or complex vectors type or both? See, Jing has static mode (which related to structure in static) and Jing in dynamic mode (which related to flow of action). certainly the training in static should support the dynamic however knowing static doesn't by defaut know the dynamic.

Say throwing one punch is more or less a single dominant vector action. while Mun sau is a complex vector action which involve changes of path of Jing.... If Tan sau is the ultimate as some claim then tan sau has to be fully all direction dynamic. but not a karate block, single dominant vector block type of technics. which doesn't support the claim. Can Tan Sau the ultimate? Based on the technical component, it can't be.

An example, say the Biu Jee set or equavelent. in the asia forum there are constant debate about why Biu Jee set doesn't go out of door and dangerous........ all sort of ideas.

However, I see Biu Jee type of technics very differently, I see it as it is a long distance technics and the key to effective long distance technics is fast, focus, and most important adaptive.

for example, when one launching a long range missile, if the missile is dumb. then it better be very fast strong. but then that still subject to be intercep and destroy in the sky....... if the missile is smart and adaptive then the chance of hitting the target and not being intercept is much higher.

so, that also related to whether WCK is Shao LIn or not due to the dna of Jing. is it discrete or continous? see, if WCK is agile and advance like water, then wck has to be able to change jing or force vector on the fly based on sensing data. It should be very adaptive instead of having fomulars.... because everything is changing....IMHO

For me, one hand neutral other force and one hand attacking is not good enough because the white crane did that ,the soughtern kuen like white eye browse... the mantis..... alots did that.

it is like a digital watch which show a second at one time. If wck is similar to water... then it has to be analog watch. it sweep every instance be it a split of micro second... and every instance can change. In the technical term of DSP, analog has no quantization erro..

I am not against anything or anyone,

but technical speaking, the time and space concept traing is similar to my kyokushin kai 3 step sparing and then one step sparing experience. But when one get up to the K tournament, everything is so dynamic and need to change direction in the middel of action. especially those while spar with those thai boxers.... very adaptive... IMHO

You might think Hendrik is crazy again. But nah, you know, we need to go as far as how many dynamic jing change can there be in order to "know" a technic. Since Grand master Ip Man's activating the vision of WCK and done a very good job, continous vision of paradigm shift must be continous to bring out the best of WCK. I always has expectation in WCK and even hight expectation for the next generation WCK practioners. And I belive and confident WCK and everyone can deliver. IMHO,

when it is adaptive. long distance is just a sum of short distance. long time is just a collection of lots of instants.

But some how "long distances' has to be address for a totallity of view. that's all. IMHO A kick is often not just a kick. a punch is often not just a punch. a kick or punch can change in the middle of its launch. .... Jing vector can change direction while contact.... No one will stand still to wait for other to counter attack

How is a general formula going to predict the future or the changes which is not happen yet which based on the depth of the "kungfu" of the oponent and the instant condition?

Not to mention the kuit of " Ni bu lai wo bu fa" (mandarin) or "if you don't come I will not issue" so decision or response was made after" sense " or "touch". thus everything is changing adapting to condition....

Thus, our ancestor give WCK a great "GPS" the sensory or feeling mechanism. They know... it doesn't matter how you change. I track the heck out of you real time.

only one thing can do that lightning speed----- thing without mass, and that is Yee.

Thus advance martial artist like Wang Xian-Chay...Sun Lu Tang... can bounce off others via Yee to change the Jing vector at instant of contact. IMHO

IM wild dream , If 1960 is the introduction about sensing .... then 2003 is the introduction about changing jing vector while contact... Beyond the shape.

Too boring to do those mechanical Tan Da, Pak DA.... but you touch me you out. Ha ha ha

It will be fun is someday all WCK people can do that. same with tan da pak da...

It is said in the old kuen kuit that " while in application nothing "shown " in shape. Thus Thus not moving is the real Ying Yang The Jewel un moving thus the application is infinity"

Since the Yang Taiji's small cycle, The Yee Chuan, The Sun Lu-Tang, The... all can do it. No reason we cant' we have the platform......we have the technology in SLT/SNT.

The idea of standing in YJKYM or parallel stance and... gentlely subdue the incoming force without even shown the rolling silk or shift is possible...........

Just have to restore the visualization....unification... link of Qi....? What do you think?

When the vision shift the paradigm will soon shift.

Why do there is a need of the six directional force? Why do TaiJi need Peng Why do Yee Chuan need the "figthing" force?

A ball foat in the water always has force vectors from up, down , left, right , forward, and backward. be it at dynamic or static.

In the water, without feel this six direction force, can one master the track of one's action?

Three synchronize

Since the brought out of the body structure.... Root .....

Eventhough not exactly wholesome, Certain part of external three synchronize ------ hand vesus feet, elbow vesus knee, shoulder.... are mention.

Then, afte the external three synchronize, it will proceed to the internal three synchronize ---- Yee,,, Qi,,,, Jing....

Are these necessary? Yes, if one want to synchronize the mind/body into one pice. IMHO.

There is silence the Heart to train Qi, Silence the Yee to train Shen which is the tee. the Heart syncronize Yee, the Yee syncronize Qi, and the Qi syncronize Li (force) . is the prepare for Young ( application) ... so different.... What is no tension state?

Song, IMHO, i called it no tension state insteat of Relax. since it has no tension but it is not diffuse and scatering.

There lie the DNA of an art. Whether it is Hard bow or Soft internal...

Song, Some belive when it is song, one sink one's body weight to the ground. Thus, there is rooting.

Song, Some belive the body should have a slight or strong feeling of Weight.

Song, Some belive one will feel the horce or stance is tensing, weight singking to the legs. Since it is rooting and this is a correct way.

Song, Some belive if the stance still feel "powerfull" sinking as describe above. it not Song. and the body breaking into two section, the top and bottom are not wholely integration.

Song, Some belive it is similar to silk floating in the air sligthly waving with the breath of inhale and exhale.

Song, some belive it is similar to a sky scraper with structure standing but full of empty space within the sky scraper where wind can feely passed by the whole sky scraper..


So what is song for you? and how to get there?

What is for me?

silk floating in the air sligthly waving with the breath of inhale and exhale.

How to get there?

similar to a sky scraper with structure standing but working to acquite empty space within the sky scraper by moving out tension in every floor. Then , the wind can feely passed by the whole sky scraper.. But no weight should sink to everywhere in the structure. otherwise, it is stagnated...

How does it feel?

Feel how silk floating in the air. it levitate, stretch freely.... light weight.. the chan saying says " one threat of silk will not clink." and how is Theta feel? the body like silk and the mind in theta... the deep...

Without close to this, even healing will not take place.... not to mention the dynamic application...

But then attach to forcefully or intentionally finding this will create worst tension in mind and body.

My belief

Without, vision, method, feeling. or positive expectation, accountblity of process, and positive feedback,

But just a word "relax", it can't get there.

But then, how much does it cost to have to learn this ancient chinese secret?

move the storage out from each and every floor of the sky scapper.. let the wind blown throught... then one is there tonight. dont have to waite until tomorrow..... remember it is not dumping the storage good to the basement .....

What do you pay attention to?

While praticing the Wu and Fook routine in SLT/SNT, or as in some lineage called it Sam Bai Fut. Some are practicing this part for a long time....

IMHO, there are concepts of Yee, Ying Yang medirian's flow, .. and six direction resultant force..... involved in the practice of SLT/SNT.

So, What do you pay attention to when you slowly practice this part of SLT/SNT? what do you expect to gain from this practice?

The different between a tree and a sun in the sky is that the sun float with the resultance force from 6 directions: up down, left right, forward backward, and still travel with it's track. Some call the six direction force Peng. some call the six direction force Fighting force. some call the six direction force Sun potential.........

The tree stand there sinking it's root to the deep earth and never be able to travel.... A tree is better then a wood standing resting mounting to a wall. but it is not a break in the join when applied force.

with the sun, the wu and fook travel.....

"As it say's K1 is not the root and Dan dien is not the control. the willow spine flexibility such as not a bone, one hands spreading it is a thousand hand....."

the only way to achieve a thousand hand is in the domain of Yee........... the body decay but the yee never touch by the aging.....

Circling Hands

JR-Circling hands is a nice platform for feeling and many other things. The base training of the rolling is called Gan Sao (following the hands) or Gun Sho is mandarin. No confusion with the Gaan Sao (cultivating hand)! It teaches you to just roll and listen. Allow your hands to feel the flow that your partner is controlling.

Part of this continuous circling motion allows you to eliminate the edges in your methods. The constant circling develops a fluidity that needs to be experienced to be appreciated.

Part of the sensativity that is being develop would naturally be no different from Luk Sao in that you learn to find the holes, you learn to feel your partners center of gravity, you learn to eliminate fixed movements or patterns and develop the ability to "change".

Circling hands in Koo Lo WC, as preserved by the Dai Sihing of the village Wong Wah Sam, makes use of 4 rolls. Normally you would only see one in the public.

HS-for Yik Kam....

there are 4 type of circle. these four connected to the open, close, rise, and drop of Emei 12 Zhuang...

there are core of breaking other's structure...... there are core of silk twisting.... there are core of listerning.. there are core of six direction force there are core of path of force...

It no longer the elbow only----- the elbow, the shoulder, the Dan Chung,.... the control.... circle never ended.

JT-just curious whether any of the other levels of Pin Sun WC circling hands have the four postures of Gaan Sao, Fook Bong, Kwan Sao, Po pei within their interaction? - the reason I ask this is that I have seen rolling interaction done utilising these four postures and I am curious about the origins.

JR-Gaan Sao? Depends on which Gan are we talking about? Certainly one can exchange the hands in the Gan Hands in a similar way that the young pupils show in Fung Chun's clip (before they started wrestling ugggg) but normally we do it a pinch different. That would be a bigger circle! Like I said: Gaan means to follow and the first stage is just listening.

Fook Bong? They are more often found transitioning thru the first stage of circling. Its not as easy to see if you were watching the Luk Sao of YKS/YM but its in there. Most spend a long long time learning this before moving onto Chi Sao number two (if they ever learn it).

Kwan Sao? There is a different Chi Sao type platform that involves the training of something similar to Kwan Sao that one learns around the time you learn Wu Dip Jeung! Normally! The Wu Dip Chi Sao is not taught to non-disciples in Koo Lo! My teacher only taught his private pupils this platform.

I can also tell you that their is a form of under cycling that one learns when you learn Biu Choi. It does not involve the Biu Choi but it is the training of that stage.

Ok! Let me give you some scoops on the training of Leung Jan's teaching in Koo Lo as our family preserves it. Keep in mind some of this stuff was already in Leung Jan's original teaching and a some stuff was modified and developed for his Koo Lo teaching.

There are basically 12 skills to the core fist fighting system. Then there are extensions and kicks etc.. Most! Most of the skills in the 12 + have some form of San Sik or two man set that goes along with it to develop certain feeling's/attributes/noi gong etc.. Then they are all trained on the dummy, in chi sao and in running hands. Some stuff is just practiced in San Sik and there is no set two man set for that stage!


Jut Choi has San Sik Dai Bong has a two man set

System proper:

Siu Lim Tao has a two man set that involes sticking Dai Lim Tao has San Sik Som Gin Choi has San Sik Biu Choi has a two man set with under cycling sticking Sup Jee Choi has San Sik Lan Kiu has San Sik Wu Dip Jeung has a two man set that is sticky Jit Jee Kum Kiu has a two man set involves sticking Hok Bong has a two man set that involes sticking Tang Ma Biu Jee has San Sik Wan Wun Yiu has San Sik Fook Fu has a two man set that is sticky

All tis stuff works out to in, in to out, bottom to top and top to bottom! 4 corners! Sifu has always made it clear that if you have the art without the training and chi sao platforms you have a bullet (and a gun) but will not know how to shoot it!

Is Yik Kam of Cho Family Wing Chun also Dai Fa Min Kam of Chi Sim Weng Chun ?

Cho Hong-Choy had written a book and letters including the family tree and..... So, i don't have to write one but just follow what my sifu wrote.

They are two separate people who played separate roles in the opera (Yik Kam was the Cheung Tan, Dai Fa Min Kam was the Mo Jing) and had separate students. While the word "Kam" may be confusing and seem similar in English, the two actually use different characters for their names (like Weng and Wing are different characters).

 have seen HFY's set and art at the friendship seminal and Robert Chu's place. I have seen Andreas Sam Bai Fut and art in his seminal.

You can be right, Chi Sim and HFY might be belongs to the same group originate from Shao Lin.

and YSK, Koo Loo, Yik Kam, Ip Man....belong to a different group in the red junk. Incidentally, the YSK, Koo Loo, Yik Kam or Cho lineages are converging even they didn't meet and discuss like in this forum since late 1800s.

But that doesn't mean HFY and Chisim are subject to the same group of art. HFY and Chisim might have a great points. Which I am open to learn about and respect.

However, no one can claim who is older or more original then who.

Such as Benny and Richard's article in Kungfu magazine. Or Sub Yat Sau is the same with Yik Kam SLT set. Any claim like that has to be back up by factual evidents. In term of History, Kuen Kuit, Kuen Po, legacy code, and family tree which is traceable.

Similarly, I would like to ask The same question to you and all the VTM researchers as you ask Jim. Have Benny or Richard or even Garret Gee ... has ever saw Yik Kam's Kuen Po, Kuen Kuit, legacy code...... to make such claim in the Kungfu maganize for Cho family and Yik Kam's art?

It will be great for you to show your full Kuen Po, lineage legacy of the set and also the legacy of Chan transmission.

so we all can learn and understand more about your system. and what is the different and the reason of the existing of both SLT and SNT. I don't belive that is only one truth. But to accept a truth one needs factual evidents.

in addition, you say "Keep in mind like alot of Chan concepts not everyone is ready to understand or except what is offered. "

Try me. I am a Chan Buddist and a disciple of Shao Lin. I will be reasonable.

You question my shao lin knowledge before.. my sifu is late buddisht monk Ven. Fa Chan of Medan Indonesia.

As a conclusion, the main point of my post is to blind tests the system since everyone love to do things scientificly these days.

Certainly, I hope people response with my post in an adult maner otherwise, it is not a discussion but a side taking act. I have never against Shao Lin because I am also shao Lin disciple.

Damo has to use Laka sutra to certify his decendent for mind seal. Fifth patriach has to use Diamond Sutra to certify his decendent for mind seal.

so who is your Chan teacher who Transmittes the Mind Seal to You? what is your Chan legacy? Which Sutra was used as Certification?

IT is time for you to answer quetions don't you? and by the way, Clock is ticking. EVery second passing mark that you agree with me on the Shao Lin His-story. See, I am wrong. But where is your evident to support I am wrong?

It is just a simple discussion of Facts and translation of what the Chinese Historians has found about Southern Shao Lin since VTM published article and make claims. Here, We are just reveal different source of history imformations. Why get upset? If it is not true then just not true. that simple.

What Gossips? IT is written black and white by the Chinese Historians.

So why make it complicated by dropping names and attacking me?

Don't you see it is about facts not about me?

I respect your belive. However, you need to respect other's also. you can reason with me but attacking me and accusation is no good what if you are dead wrong? there always a 50/50 chance. Beside, you don't even know where I was in China tracing the Breaking in rout of Lee zhi-Chen to BeiJing where forcing the Ming emperor to commit suicide 16xx ... to SHang Hai 1850's.and .... So again don't make assumption . And from Fatsan doesn't give you a ticket to the truth. There might be some others who has even go further then all of us but not saying a thing.

We all are equal. You can be correct in certain things which I will not argue with you. But, look as in Chinese saying, how vast is heaven how thick is earth?


If WCK required a body like silk which can "floating" in the air ---- with one feather cannot landing on capability to perform a Lai Lau Hui Soong.....

"thus the hero has no matched because he/she alone knows others..... using tranquil to subdue active...."

And, if we all can't even get there but constant struggle in move which growing away from the nature.... importing Hard bow and localized technics....or adding...

What evolution can it be before we figure out how to attain the silk body to gain the full potential of the art? or destruction is proceeded by the name of evolutiuon and the address of the olderst and most original... which travelling to an opposite direction. IMHO.

It is not about power it is about grace It is not about anger it is about peace -------Bullet proof monk

One way of to be "faster" is to let go of one's stagnation within one's body and mind. without a "self" one will behave similar to the nature. There one float and flow. Isn't it simple and direct? It is a process of returning to nature.... who still remember TAHNNNN sau or WUUUU sau or .... call it what you like

Structure is a jumping stone state.. Silk floating in the air is just begining to awake.......

Springy means certain purposely tensing. Rooted means tensing in the legs.

They said, one feather cannot be added..... That is the begining of understand ..... otherwise, it is still forcefull.

only when there is no one treat hanging on the boddy the Yee is begining awaken to fully function.

Structure? which Structure? ha ha haha

the external 3 syncronizing the internal 3 syncronizing? In the realm of physical? IN the realm of Breathing? In the realm of Yee?

Which realm? prajna paramita weightless?

silk floating in the air tide washing the shore...... all nature....

buy a pair of new with extra cusion running NIKE shoe. everytime you walk a step you rooted and unrooted. you can feel that free and slight bouncy feeling.

But if you read Robert Chu's work and carry all what he says like carrying a boat after cross the river, then you are in trouble. Why carry the boat which add to your own in convernient.

Same with all those Kim Sat, sinking elbow.......

Buy a pair of new extra cussion running Nike shoe today. and learn rooting and body structure there dynamically.

Remember the bird has to dip alittle before take off? just that a little. But then ha ha haha, if you always pay attention to that dip you will not walk right but acting and excessive in motion.

Those who belive in rigid formular and time and spare... never understand the nature and dynamic. even time is non linear and relative..... So for them life is life, nature is nature, wing chun is wing chun, shao lin is shao lin, emei is emei, white crane is white crane. Do we care for all those label? Buying Nike or Adidas? paradigm shift? some one has to awake in stead of being silly.

PS: It doesn't matter You are buying NIke or Adidas. But it is matter to know what to look for. But then I can not walk for you even If i have mind seal from DAMO of Chan, not to mention all the misleading teaching which has no substance.

So, let got the limit thought and return to the true emptiness. experience the walking with a pair of new extra cussion Nike. Then, one begins to know structure by nature.

Belief it or not. Forgot about yik kam or Shao LIn or emei or white crane. the final analysis is Got Experience (milk) and where is the art (beef). But then we are talking about different things. or needs to be fullfill.

we can't blame some looking for safety and esteem while some talking about self actualization.

All is about structure. only in different paradigm.

How far can your SLT bring you?

There are mass discussion about where the lineage comes from or who is the oldest or Shao LIn or Emei........paradigm shift.....

IMHO, ultimately, it is not important at all if history is just history and DNA is just DNA.

so, I would like to start a new topic here about :

Presume you are correct about all your history, DNA, and you are the oldest..... most original...... or anything one likes to claim or don't like to claim.... set all this history discussion into rest.

So, the final analysis are:

1, how advance ( level or state) can your SLT/SNT tranining get you to?

2, what is the vision of this advance achivement or attainment?

3, have anyone in your lineage achived this visionary goal in the past?

4, what kind of theory and training were embeded in your SLT/SNT to make this achivement possible?

IMHO, different people have different view. So some go a long way, some do not. the facts are always there, but why should one force other to belive what one doesn't belive?

IF you read my re phrase questions properly you know it is not about Chan. It is about what SLT/SNT can do. Very Tangeble and Technical.

As for mindfulness of Chan, if one can drive a Car in a highway then ofcause one has mindfulness. Everyone has buddha nature. Everyone is created with the image of GOD. One has it without needed to work for it.

As For Chan, Chan is a teaching focus on breaking one's attachment to methodology and self, as teaches in Chan sutras.

As for Samadhi, one can attain that from Chan school, Esoteric School..... Daoism..... Sufi.... Hinduism.... ect.. So it is a phenomenon with different name.

But then, the question I have phrase up there are not about Chan....

It is such as Taiji has Reel Silk or Peng to carry it's trainner to advance state. Hsing Yee has the San Chai Zhuang to carry its trainner to advance state...... Hope that this make it clear.

, how advance ( level or state) can your SLT/SNT tranining get you to?

IF EMEI 12 zhuang have 9 level of state which at around the 6th level one shift into the paradigm of Light. Then, YIK KAM SLT, similar to its mother at least has 9 levels. -HS

2, what is the vision of this advance achivement or attainment?

Return to Sunyatta or Emptiness or Natural by get rid of limitation in the realm of Mind/Body. -HS

3, have anyone in your lineage achived this visionary goal in the past?

Yik Kam

and Chow Chien-Chuan of Emei 12 Zhuang. - HS

4, what kind of theory and training were embeded in your SLT/SNT to make this achivement possible?

Let got the body then the body will be is light as silk. Let got the breathing then the Qi turn into heat and light Let got the self then one flow naturally similar to water. -HS

IT is about Grace not about power It is about Peace not about Anger...

Air is similar to land, one can step one it. Belive then one shall ..... ---- Bulletproof Monk.

Spontaneously return to natural, the Qi and Mai settle in peace"

How many type of Spontaneous are there?

after certain level it is not the about the set anymore. it is about the person who does the set.....

Keeping tensing the elbow and knee will not going anyway. -- Both the Goat die and the people go no where. ha hahaha.. Standing without ankle will floating into no where. Both the Goat and the people keep floating into nowhere...

Thus Surangama sutra is very important after get into silence state or theta. Beware of you fantasy become true... So, Surangama sutra is needed, Buddhist art right?

The SLT suppose to be simple, direct, clear, and fresh right?

I'm not into metaphysics also.

How do you do SLT without mind? How do you direct your body while doing SLT?

Simple and not metaphysics right?

First check if you stop breathing habitually when you do anything. any stop breathing is not nature.

Second check if you freeze you mind habitually when you do anything. any freezing is not nature.

Third Check if you tense part of body habitually when you do andything. any tensing is not nature.

simple right?

so , how to do a Tan sau with all above criterials? some train for a whole life time and not look into these...but expect to be great.

How to expect to have a flow like water nature? and feel lite like silk. and heavy like mountain.... where is the technology?

That's why I argue. Name and brand provide not much. Frame of Sifu just a name. natura is the core. and return to nature is the essensial of SLT. So how to define nature? the above definition is as simple as possible, right?

There is nothing about metalphysic or Chan talk or ..... all is natura and tangible.

why is one get sick? alots because violating the natural with bad habit as describe above.

Talking about fighting? that is about application and the use of mind/qi/body. so, get the mind/qi/body natural. the rest will flow...

There is only one wck and not two. There is only one wck and no olderst. There is only accord to nature and not forceful.

There is relative time, space, methods.... due to one will response differently while listerning to a pice of symphony or hot rock.

Can one flow without self? only then one flow naturally. Time and space transform and it is about grace not about power. it is about peace not about anger. It is about harmony can get what we want not about revenging the Qing which has past 100years ago.

Only there and then, the best possibility of our energy reveal without being block by ourself and our Self-attached-mind.

You need to let go and examine everything. one by one. one by one... phoenix will raise only after one burn into ashes.

Belive and one shall meet. Give up tensing , breathing with ease....and silk is indeed floating....

Before the dawn is a total darkness....... some belive and some don't.

without going through deep winter there is no plum flower.

One time a junior guy post that Yik Kam lineage doesnt make sense or what... about where is the Chi Sau comes.....

You know, Emei system has something what it was called the Twisting Silk set... with is very Chi Sau type of stuffs... not to mention the application Kuit of Emei 12 zhuang ....

As for Shao Lin... need to see more evidents. Keep an open mind.

But, Chinese alots of time using "foo Hui" madarin. To link what it is not one pice. so we have to be watched real carefully. Normally, if one search into details one can almost find if it is a "foo Hui" case.

Is it a snake shape? or a snake body? Is it a Crane Shape ? or a Crane body?

Different very different. Certainly can't find in Shaw's brother movies... Shape or body?

A rigid body with a Snake shape hand technics ?

or a snake silk like body which can take any shape and still capable of releasing inch Jing as needed? One has to go to goldern summit of emei to find this type of snake.

with the beautifull scene, comes elegant art....


a body feel like silk floating in the air. weight less and transparent. a breathing with in hale and ex hale that is natural and never tense up any part of body forcefully. a mind in theta wave state.

It is similar to growing or feeding flower... how can it be accelerate? how can an elegant beautiful flower to be growing or feeding with heart of vengen, hatret, resenment?

An inhale and an exhale which is as fresh and natural as an morning air.. how many year one has to grow it to get there? without this one stop breathing on almost everything one does......only when it is as fresh, natural, and transperent... magic shows up...

The is no to be or not to be. it is just be it. and one will know. the proper one will achieve as he likes. the not proper one will after decade give up the false and cultivate the to be or not to be... everyone will be there. some sooner some later... as soon as continous to cultivate and searching.... everything is ok.

the beautiful scene, the natural and fresh breathing,... the silk like body...

Let's make a three episodes movie........ on SLT.

episode one --- Miau Soon's legacy

Sample draft translation of The operation of Heavenly Zhuang of Emei 12 Zhuang:

With a balance Qi, stand properly in equal shoulder stance. Both palms rising foward, take the path of half Ying Yang Upper arm same level with shoulder, and equal to chest witdh The front elbow sligthly bent, echoing the position of the nose....

Equal shoulder stance widen to letter one stance....

sample draft translation of Crane and Dragon Zhuang:

The nature of crane is no fighting Thus, that is analogy to the virture of Pheonix The agile dragon only shows its head Thus, it is difficult to be predicted. This is an application post Hold the precept and bow to the guest

Technics essence is in neutralize and analysis offence and defence both can be applied..... facing many enermy, unify the dragon and crane using the qi of ren and du medirians, bending foward,backward, and levitate to surpassed.

Leg preaching the eigth methods, finger probing hundreds of pressure points. Using his shoulder, using enermy to subdue enermy within ten thousand horses army war, one travelling with ease....

In the realm of Asura, compasionate is equiped The disciple of Buddha, taking the precept of no killing.

sample draft translation of Small letter Zhuang:

Small Zhuang and Big Zhuang (posture), Within the Kuit, there hidden the Zhuang. Using the Forward and reverse complementary-ly Never forget about this while Investigate and cultivating. Heaven and Earth 12 postures, Training hard (one) needs the small (details) Using this advance Kuit Ten Thousand leads source from the small ( details).

(From) stance to legs (motion) forward or backward The upper three and hands motion or still The middle three front bent, back bent, or side turn. One must totally "master" this method (all must link into one pice)

Investigate the Small Posture while (prictice with) stillness and motion. (its) Qi, Mai, on the surface and deep (within the body)

External application and subdue (heart) Demon (one own illusion ) The enermy was injured but not noticed.

Start the praticed with Heaven posture Stand in the equal shoulder stance The heart (mind) is balance (tranquile/peace) and the breathing is quite Both eyes stares forward (far) away Start with moving left hand forward Settle the Ying Palm at shoulder high Finger toward the sky then transform into the center Mai (Half Ying Half Yang medirian) Sweep (reel) spiral while return to waist. Five finger tracing the taichi circle.....

episode 2 the Ng Mui's legacy

sample draft translation of White crane method of Fujian

What is Zee Moo (center) return to center? Zee Moo (center) return to the center means the center line is proper.

All operation must be internal as strong as steel, external soft as cotton, finger as mud, obey the center line while changing....

... the whole body, upper/middle/lower, three doors must be erect smoothly, forward incoming can used the single wip. if reverse, return to center, enter the door and breaks it, meeting the bridge, break it, strike as soon as empty ,..

episode 3 --- Yim Yee's Legacy

Miu Soon told Yim Yee " the art I thought you is not Ng Mui's White Crane, but my creation which fused my original art with Ng Mui's white crane.

I named it as The essense training in Detail or Siu Lien Tau.

After I passed away, take good care of it and passed it to people who is Trust worty." 1700's Kui county, Kwan Xi, China.

Spring, 2003, Sunnyvale, Nasa Mofet field , Northern California, United States of 3am, the sun is raising......

Is it or is it not, It is your decision...........

The episode 4 should be the episode of Yik Kam's legacy

When some of the 800 years old kuen kuit/ movements, some of the 300 years.......

Disregards of how people argue about Kuen kuit is not important..... for Chinese Martial art it is the soul. Some one watching the croughing tiger and hidden dragon?

Via the kuen kuit everything can be traced.....

Honestly, it is lots of late sifu Cho Hong-Choy's work. It is his will to give what he found to the WCners... I am just a messenger.... knowing not much.....

Who can reverse Heaven's will? Who can take Heaven's credit to show the path? That is heaven's will.

From Shang Hai's Dien Chun Dang to Canton's FatSan, From Emei Goldern Summit to Kui county of Kwan Xi. From Poon Yee of Canton to Eng Chun of Fujian... From Daoism to Buddhism. From White cloud Chan master to Fang Eng Chun. From Red Boat to California. From Song Dynasty to 2003.....

To find or not to find.. It is a matter of where to find and time only...

Mun Hung,

Sure there are more and more and more to come with evidents with translation.....with comentaly into details...

what is here is just a tip of an ice berg....

And there might be also a third minor components of WCK which..... The above two mother components have fill 90/80 percents....?

Now, I would sincerely ask the shao lin researchers to present thier research on the source and evolution and paradigmshift..... To support the hypothesis of Tan Sau Ng, Yat Chan, JeeSim, since some one has make a claim to be the oldest and so we need to have writting cross funtional "whole some, total, in one pice not just broken pice" Kuen Kuit, Kuen Po (operation note), legacy, and lineage information to learn about thier hypothesis.

A reason of can't be discuss is not good enough because if the 6th partriach of Chan can preach Chan in his Platform Sutra. Then, that have prof that even Chan can become writing prajna (wisdom) which can be transmitted via writing. He who is clear about a technology always can find a simple layman way to explain it.

Not to mention, the emei kuit as it is did link Buddhism with it and it constantly told the practitioner " compassionate... no killing".

I will be real happy to see any similarity of above two evidents pice from Shao Lin.... I am open.

The second episode? that is from the White Crane Wing Chun Book

A book by the People Republic China Martial art association which has collection of old Fujian White Crane history, theory, old kuen kuit ect... email me for ISBN number.

"using the qi of ren and du medirians, bending foward,backward, and levitate to surpassed."


"The middle three front bent, back bent, or side turn. One must totally "master" this method (all must link into one pice)"

Some one asking me about CK, BJ.....

Now, Any one do CK, BJ ? how do you Bent front and back or side turn?

what do you use to do that? What is the "middle Three"?


Is it or is it not. That is the question. Judge for yourself.

Why does even Yi Chuan has different type of Zhuang?


All buddhist take vow to take refuge in Buddha , Dharma , and Sangha.

All buddhist will have to learn sutra and sastra. That is the buddha Dharma. That is Buddha's teaching.

Chinese Buddhist all makes a vow " deeply study the Sutra and Sastra to attain sea deep wisdom."

So, are you saying you dont have to learn buddha Dharma and claim you are a Chan school follower? and you can create your own term?


The Sutra is the salira of Buddhas. Where ever there is sutra there is Buddha. So decide for yourself if Sutra is the heart of Chan and what is the Chan?

You speaking about Heart or Sin or Sum. Well, this is just term in Madarin or Cantonese. no big deal with the term in cantonese or madarin.

The fact is If sutra is not the heart of Chan then why the 5th patriach needs to use the Diamond sutra to verify the 6th patriach and why Boddhidhama of Shao LIn need to use Lanka sutra to verify the 2nd patriach.

EVEN DAMO has to USE LANKA sutra as certification. So do you says XYZ or ABC can creat their own term without following sutra? ARe they more senior then DAMO? If they are Then what is their record in Buddhism History?

if the XYZ or ABC are not then they are DEMON using the name of Buddhism to mislead people according to Surangama Sutra.

As soon as the teaching of Suragama is in this world, you can't get away. Get that?

See, some people love to pretend they know what they really don't.

As in Surangama Sutra, The Buddha Told Ananda," you are like those who always talk about herb. but will not regconized one when you actually see it...... how is cooking sand can make you rice? "

Making all the false argument is an act which will result in one's own confusion. Which will trap one within one's own false logic or cultist thinking. And that is Hell.

Hope that those who are in Demon realm as state in Surangama Sutra ; someday can find a way out When they realized they are trap in their own cult.

Where is the way out? Read the Surangama Sutra.

EVen the 6th Patriarch reached instant enlightenment, he still has to spend 16 years to cultivate himself.

One can understand all about Fajing. But without the grinding and training. not much advance state one will attain.

It is difficult to compare with the 6th Patriarch. And certainly even him has to spend 16years. No examption.

Now, Gautama Buddha, He is a Buddha, How many year he has to cultivate and searching?

As it says in Surangama's 52 demon state. One can just read the 52 demon state chapter and identify who is who.

What's the point of taking precepts or talking about precepts if you're already living them?"

When one claim to invent and teach the most efficient martial art to hurt and Kill.

Is that living in the proper behaviour of No Killing teach by the Buddha?

Or it is just a great lie because one is not capable to hold the precept of No Killing. so one violates the Precept of Lying to cover up oneself by preaching not to follow Precept.

that is the case refer as Demonic teaching in Surangama Sutra.

"The method of Great Vehicle, there is not about givin face. If there is doubt one must search to clear it out. It is not that this old monk loves to qualler. He who cultivates should not fall into the Hell of Eternity or Dull Emptiness. "

It is always better to be a Buddha Wanna Be then a Demonic follower.

Buddha Wanna Be follow the teaching of Buddha and will someday attain Buddhahood.

Demonic follower will end up suffering in Hell of non stop interval....

How dangerous is that?

People qoute Hsu Yun here and there. But what they don't know is that Hsu Yun was working in the commentary of the Surangama Sutra prio to his passing away... Since Hsu Yun's teaching core in Surangama Sutra. Unfortunately, some people destroy his work ........ Great lost.

I belive we should help WCK or our next generation by give them all the views and materials we have gone through. So they have a choice. Not neccesary that I am right. But, different voice is needed.

Certainly we don't have to say anything and let the myth continous. But then, how many of good young people can be mislead? Students are responsibilities. Students are not ARMY. Students are kid of other parents. Will any parent use thier kids as ARMY? We all need to think deep how to make them much much better then us. Speaking of confusian, Confusious said, "caring for the young one".

If one read the Demonic state chapter of surangama sutra. It was predicted, either these people will go nuts or trouble with gorvement.

Non of us know it all, and I am not the buddha or patriach. But we all can change to be better and avoid trouble. Thus, sharing what the proper teaching of Buddhism is important. This is because, if one wants to study Buddhism do it properly so everyone benifit.

If you read the ----three non-outflow studies chapter on cut off Killing.

You can see clearly, the preaching of Shao Lin martial art for Killing is violating the teaching of the Buddha. So, will Shao Lin disregard of north or south put up a sign of Buddhism and practising other belive?

People say Hsu Yun is this and that in Martial art. In my understanding, Hsu Yun was torture and beat at an age of over 110 year old. But he face the torturers with forgiveness. One of his student die in the torturers' beating. That was Buddhism in practice dare to give up his life and forgiveness.

Again, it is up for people to belive what they like. Free world. But, again, lets factual evidents tell the world what is the Buddhism of BoddhiDharma passed down

what is Faat or Boddhidharma for you? What is Sou Faat or cultivating Boddhidharma for you? Is Boddhidharma something one can gain? Is it matter where one cultivating Boddhidharma? What is the different between Faat or Boddhidharma and Suk or technic?

Why do you think the cultivators of past, present, and future investigates the Surangama Sutra, practice the Surangama Dharani, entering into the surangama samadhi at home, at temple, at everywhere?

There is only one goal for "All " Buddhist to practice Buddhism. That is to end the cycle of birth and death or Samsara.

Saying the above, now may be you need to ask: How is the Buddhist monks with a Mission of Ending birth and death, linking with creating a martial art system in a Buddhist temple, with a goal of to very effectively kill Qing? You think that make sense? Actually, the reason why most buddhist study Buddhism is to be Buddha. But yes, trying to end the cycle of birth or a cycle of anything is another reason aswell, which leads me to the next qustion. With what you are telling me here, that you believe in the cycle of birth, which deals with Karma. So, why do you always indirectly attack people. --Train.

Is end the cycle of birth and death the primary reason or to have a title BUDDHA?

To end Birth or death, needs proper Dharma which Precept is number one core before doing anything.

The karma of pointing out others illusion is a karma that other will pointing out one's illusion. Both yield karma of enlightement.

Certainly, those in dream doesn't like to be called dreaming.

Weng and Wing?

On the other hand, certainly the technics of Hung Gar related Kiu sau technics are different compare with the Emei 12 Zhuang based DNA... which are: Sustain pressing, stick touch to listern, Hooking to stantion, covering to .... lots of kuit....

Two different core..certainly one cannot use the Hung gar related Kiu method to replace the 12 zhuang type of DNA.

It is perfectly great that If Chisim WCK, Hung Fa Ye WCK, Hung Gar find their ancestors and root art. Trace it to the root which is different to Wing Chun Kuen of the opera.

Chan, natural, ...Siu Lien Tau, Chi Sau, Concentration.... how are they become one?

There are two core components in mental cultivation which connecting Chan, meditation,Yee, Nature, Human, SLT, Chi Sau, ..... everyday living.

Once that two core components are known. The rest will naturally reveal. one can even notice it while driving a car or doing a chi sau or taking an cooking class.

IMHO, some Chinese Martial art system, sometimes, alots of time , is a TRIBAL organization where the the Chief's word is the "nature" or THE LAW of universe.

Thus, For some Chief of the TRIBE, the term Shao Lin or Wu Dang are a Mantra to get to GOD. And the Mantra is not alow to be asked or question because it is the Chief's word. Or else one is put into against the GOD position.

IMHO, If WCK has to progress then the first paradigm shift is shift from a Tribal system to a nature based self actualization system.

Or may be WCK originally is not a tribal system but some make it a tribal system which is also a paradigm shift but a reverse one.

If the WCK ancestors has a say of "Learning has no junior or senior, He who master the art is the teacher". That is the indication of WCK is not a tribal system. right? IMHO

Should we all talk about chan, Tahn..... or cut everything go direct into common term awareness, concentration..... and lots and lots still waiting for us to discover or rediscover..

Focused awareness? Try to focus the awareness and one will lost the awareness. or become me me me.... may be the reason of all tense while doing SLT and chisau is because following Bruce Lee's advise of TOTAL CONCENTRATION? Try it see is that the case.

let go the focus and one will also let go the "self". or back to natural. but is that correct?

So look for the moon and one stuck at the finger because of focus. but aware of the sky and lost both the moon and finger. So what is what. where is the moon? hahahaha.

they call this chan koan --- to not let one has the chance to land on either side. All Damo's chan followers has to pass through this gate of no door. hahaha

Where is the space, time..... me... if one can't land on either side? hahahaha

so how to use those mental tools in SLT, Chi Sau, .... and daily life? We live in 2003 not 1850... and don't have to the follow the Chief from TaiPing. It is not a philosophy but about how to live fully and spontaneously and naturally in all situation and condition.....

The monastic label and the custom or tradition of Shao Lin will not apply in the era of Matrix.

It is a different ERA. A 1850 will never be able to understand what is a GAMEBOY. A 2003 kid will never understand to live without computer in 1850. We need the language of this era, using the experience of the people in this era, to explain what is reality.

Otherwise, we will not understand.

with the thought pattern of 2000, technology of 2000, using High tech of 2000, and with the core of as old as the begining of the cosmos... ---- the fifth episode , Return to the limitless

Water just flow. it doesn't think about flow or progressing.....Lao Tze told the chinese to learn from Heaven and Natural. The Chinese again and again produce Tribal Chief --- emperor-- and dictators. From the first emperor of Ching who force building the great war to The Chief of Taiping.... to MAo Tze-Dong to who ever will emerge later... It is all about EGO and Playing GOD.

In the contrary, The people out side the Country of Central, Somehow follow the Lao Tze better. and they have the democratic, and they have the humanistic, and they have the ..... self-actualization systematic philosophy.... and ...high tech.... and free speech.... and universities....

Who keep living? who dies away? Lao Tze is right

In Australia it is Fall now I belive. In silicon valley it is Summer. I can accept both are facts. So, it is about the nature and location. Not about Australia and Silicon Valley is the center of the universe. IF there is a Chief in Sillicon Valley, He might said the whole world should be and must be Summer. If There is a Chief in Australia, he might said the whole world should be and must be Fall.

Thus, Some chief call it Tan and Some call it Tahn...... and they claim to be the truth.

Too complicated, it is a motion of flip over ,or uncover just like when one flip over the cover of the WOK. Take away what the Chief said Tan or Tahn....and flip over to uncover the cover of the Wok and ready for dinner.

Try it in the kitchen, that is the best way to learn Tan or Tahn... opsss the flip over uncover hand. Don't need Lao Tze or Chan or Shao Lin... hahhaha

Wing Chun is Internal

1. there is nei chia and nei kung. nei kung is the cultivation of mind, breathing, qi, internal organs. 2. buy the copy of sound body sound mind. get into the deep. then come back and see how relax you are daily. 3. get a audio tape from gay hendricks about centering and proper breathing. start there before any chinese text.

relax is about cultivating the tee'body' , using relax and tense to generate potential belongs to young 'application' focus inside is cultivating shen. focus outside is using the yee....

 think we should called it WHOLESOME instead of internal

the term Hay Gung or Qi gung or breath work is not popular in China until after 1910.

As the term Nei Gung or Internal training/ work is popular before that. Thus, it is proper that the WCK doesnt use the term Qi Gung. Otherwise, it will be a fake made up. IMHO.

Nei Gung is a term seems has been replaced by Gi gung. But Nei Gung has broader meaning. Say TaiJi, some call it Nei Gung Chuan.

The general path of Nei Gung is something like this.

Physical relaxation ---> Mental Silence---> entering into stillness.

Posture structure practice ---> posture link with breathing ----> posture link with Mai ---> Visualization ---->

Mind link with breathing ---> Mind switching let go linking to breathing to link MAi ( the moving heat) ---> Mind linking with Mai

The physical relaxation and mental silence are two foundametal which are very critical. without this, all internal art has difficulty to be implement.

The common kuit in Emei 12 zhuang or Yik kam SLT said that

" Let it spontaneously following the natural the Mai and qi will be smooth".

To do this, one needs to have physical relaxaion and mental silence foundation. otherwise, the spontaneous cannot be implement or achive. Thus, the spontaneous flow in Chi Sau or real life usage cannot be achived. IMHO I think the term Internal art might be better change to HOLISTIC?

IMHO, internal is about developing oneself and art as a "whole" and "INSIDE OUT" instead of "fragmented" and " outside".

As for inside out,

One develop both the Tee (body) and Young (application) and at the end Tee and Young become one.

1, For example,

the application such as the Lau concept. (lau sau)

if one has the mastering of Tee or body of "flowing naturally" eg. like water. Then, automatically, one Lau when it is time.

But then, it takes years to master the "flow naturally" like water. So, learning Lau concept is great so that one can use the Lau concept before one master the "flow naturally".

Once one master the "flow" Lau is automatic. Such as one doesn't mechanically recall to step on gas while driving a car.

2, Since human is not robot, every human has it's special characteristics. Certainly, one can learn formulars, kiu sau.... or intention focusing and put them to use.

But then, those are just like programming. This programming of method of application. is called learning the Suk or technic. This doesn't make use of one's full potential and very very oftern will not get one to advance stage. Thus, this type of learning might get one to a certain level very fast but after will remain there forever or decay with old age when the mind and body aging.

As for Dao cultivation, one has to look inside onself, find the characteristic of oneself. Inside to outward, align the characteristics or nature of oneself to harmonise with the art one is learning. Will Dao cultivation, one will flow with the nature as needed. Certainly this is not easy and will not be able to short cut. One has to find out one's breathing, one's mental states, one's thinking pattern.... one's body up to pinky. .... then Qi the heat comes in.. then the internal organs... then the slight move of body weight..... then the focus and awareness in mind.... examine every pices... and then examine the incoming force... the vectors of force.. diferent type of forces..

There is big reason one need to get to total relaxation. only when the body is total relax. (One can get the breathing method to relaxation from DR. Gay Hendricks breathing research.) Then, one can enter the state of Silence. When the mental is in the state of Silence, Here one can learn and reporgram the mind and body. ( Here is begining of the Deep which refer by Dr. Andrew Wield in Sound body sound mind.... ) One can find out one's reaction on certain things which we got condition when we are baby... From here, this state, one can find out how one pull "reverge gear" or creat trouble or tensing pattern for one's own body or mind... Thus, in the Chi Sau, oftern one is one's enermy.

Then, after passing the relax and silence State, one get into the STillness state, as in the Surangama sutra states this as entering to the "flow of sage". or "entering the flow and vanish the one who enter"... and the samadhi cultivation started here...., where the person "who" is doing the contemplating needs to be "remove" in order to enter. while doing this one investigating concentration, awareness.. This is where the Chan cultivation started. Without the Relax. silence.... one is far away from Chan... So, it is not that simple about seeing a sifu or following a formula... saying a matra....

It is from the Stillness state, advance martial art will be realized, healing is possible, FAjing or reciving Jing can be understood. And since the stillness state has level of deepness. every level brought one different capabilities....

As it was saying in the Emei 12 Zhuang Kuen Kuit, "Thus, Thus NOT moving is the real Ying Yang, the precious Jewell not Moving (in still), the application is spontaneous."

IN the holistic path there is no short cut. and any polution of mind will bring one to distortion path as it was called Demon path in the past. Thus the precepts in Buddism as a purifier is a must to entering this gate of samadhi.

That is also the reason I never belive the Shao Lin Chan monk create WCK as the ultimate fighting art... If those Shal Lin Chan monk does this either they have no cultivation or they are in distorted state. I belive Shao Lin Chan monk has cultivation, thus, I don't belive they inventing " the ultimate fighting art " to KIll Qing.

If WCK just an art with only some Applications method then WCK is not holistic but external. If WCK has only Body or Tee training method than WCK is just a healing art. If WCK also has Body or Tee cultivation method then WCK is a holistic art. Certainly, the power of WCK is not only from Application but a both the application and Body system-- a whole.

So, I would say, Holistic might be a better word then Internal. What is a better word for you to describe the above?

IMHO, i won't say I am know it all. But the above model might serve a reference for who would like to see the link from a detail to a whole.

One can use concentration to Censor one's awareness.

To sense one needs to let the concentration go so that one aware of what is going on around one. If the concentration of forcing toward.... that will lost the awareness and become rigid, then one starts trying to force thing the way one wants..... fear of getting hit, anger of got hit.... all raise up when the "center" lost.

Not easy stuff and certainly can't use black and white to describe it but it is there. concentration, awareness, "pull away me" as entering the stream of surangama. If mix muscle intent with Yi to push forward, then, that is similar to an object that travel outward without a "self resultant equilbriun".

What happen is there has to be a Self-resultant equilibrium within the object that travel outward for the object to be lively and self balance dynamically. That self resultant equilibrium , IMHO, just to generally and to link things, in Yee Chuan is called Cheng Lik or figthing or resultant force. In TaiJi is called the Peng JIng. In White Crane Eng Chun, It is called the Sun Potential or Chao Yang sieh. Without the development of this Self resulatnt equilibrium force or can look at it as a gravitational force which to hold and dynamicly balance the " core" or "structure" or "self" of the object together. The object will be easily deflected. Since it is a "dead" object.

Now, since human is alive and since there is awareness and concentration and self alignment involve. it is very "alive" and adaptive. So, Thus, I argue and disagree about SLT training is about kiu sau of Qi or... fragmenedly. IMHO, nothing is advance if the training doesn't get holistics.... so it is not the set it is the people who train the set holisticly which is the indication of the letter "small" detailly holistic. and also , it is the set, if the set doesn't design in this way then disregard of how one train, say the TaiYUKu kata or Pin an Kata, one will not get there. It is different DNA.

IMHO, Why doing the so called Sam Pai Fut in SLT ? there are alots has to do with the self-resultant equilbrium.

Thus, that is not Hung Gar's Iron Wire. That is not other styles' Sam Pai Fut, the name might be the same but it is different thing. IMHO, based on DNA of the art. And in SLT, is that only the Sam Pai Fut has to do with the self-resultant equilibrium, imho, no, all moves have to do with it. Now, without this self-resultant equilibrium, WCK will not show its total potential. IMHO. I can be wrong, certainly.

Nothing is easy, even just to sort out and experience a little this or that is not easy. See the TaiJi people doing Taiji and having all the clasical theories... but how many really can pin point every concept? and walk the talk? Not to mention master the talk. ( Here is not to put down Taiji, but to state a reality that it is not easy without lots of investigation holisticly)

Let's see what was written in the past.....


Using stillness to subdue the motion Listerning and Tracking constantly, Keen in issuing instantaneous penetrating Jing, neutralization and offensing simultaneously, Technic: concise, agile, elegant, and airtight. Expert in close body gates....

The core set is Siu Lien Tau (the essence training about details)...... practicing Chi Sau .....

rapid fire to centerline..... Tan Bong FOk..... Rooting.... Jumping.... This kiu and that kiu....

when is all these add in and who adds them in?

Is SLT A "dictionary" or a "Bible" of WC?

There are only a small handfull of ground keys to know about meridian and breathing ...yee ...for Chinese MA. Not much at all but certainly one has to put good amount of time to get the experience before can benifit from it. after that, it is a habit or a nature. After about 2 decades of searching, analysis, and synthesis, since I am not a strong boy since a kid, eventhough I try to train hard and get great training via Kyukusin for the full contact...., the understanding of these keys indeed makes a different in health, daily living, .... and in the sustaining of MA... and can ramp up quick if one needed to get more intensity...

see after 40's human are issues will reveal..... and not much time to train... but experience in those keys preserve one's skill to a certain degree... even without training since it becomes a part of living.

Not to talk about the greatest fighter. But, a balance man where one is healthy....feel comfortable and peace... Those are the benifits...

As you see, good fighters in modern WCK era oftern died of Liver or Heart or stroke...problems....... there is a sign about the extreem of the training and some platform has been lost...., can we avoid that? that is a good question to search into the proper of nature...

Is YJKYM a stance or a zhuang?

There is no WCK, it is just White Crane Wing Chun from Fujian doing it softly. Then, keep evol and evol and evol, more things being add up.....

WCK is just a soft vertion of White Crane Wing Chun.

Now Champion your uniquness. Otherwise, you all agree that.

There is NO WCK. hahhahhahhahahaha

If there is NO WCK then all the Shao lin story ect are all make up. See, LEE MAN NAU practice White Crane Wing Chun. and He is the only REAL person who exist in the history of Qing and evolution. So where is your ancestors? Where is Wong Wah Poh? Where is Leong Yee Tai? Where is Yik Kam? Where is Hung GAm Biu? Hung GAm is just a common name of the Rebel. And LEE MAN MAU is the leader of Hung GAM. So if there is a leader of HUng GAM named HUNG GAM BIU that has to be LEE MAN MAU.

AND Lee MAN Mau, practice White Crane Weng Chun from Fujian. NOt SHAO LIN from North. NOt Shao Lin from South, NOt Chi Shim's ART , NOT HUNG GAR, BUT,---- White Crane WEng Chun from Fujian.

When a man sees a female Crane figthing and he created that style. That is Wing Chun kuen.

See, a female sees a Male crane will try to imitate the Male or Masculine.

But, when a female such as WingChun sees a Female Crane fight. She just adopt it as it is. No need to change.

But then, when the male studying a female Crane style. then the male has to give up the masculine.... to become soft.

Make sense?

The point is very very clear. So what is the uniqueness of WCK? If one cann't spell it out very clearly. Then, WCK is just a name without content.

Can't say there is no Karata. Kyukushin has both SanChin and Muay Thai modification kicks... That is Kyukushin's uniqueness.

Snake can be a shape or a type of motion. So, that has to be defined.

Is it a snake shape adding a Crane Shape to make WCK? Or is it a snake movement embeded in the art combine with the potential of Crane which makes WCK.

Hahahaha, until one clearly define it there is no WCK.

While I am reading the order of phoenix.

and somehow, Fotimo get me trapped in the Red Junk and witness how the Qi with the mongolian wrestle killed a few Shao Lin monks and WCK.

One monk enter with a knee and he was taken wrest down... then JeeSin was killed by White Eyebows because of his wide horse stance...

Everyone is on the run. The center line punch has no used against the qing because they hit the elbow of WCners or the side chest point of the lung medirians.....

The YGKYM was tolally destroyed. Because the YGKYM's can be model by two upside down V and the waist section is the weakest link.... they break the WCner's via a down ward punch direct to the waist from chest sliding down while the Wcners do the Tan Sau.....

Most people, Wong Wah poh was in hiding, Leong Yee Dai has fleet. Yik Kam and Cho soon jump out of boat.... It is the ambus of the Fine Jade..... lots die... Lee Man Mau fleet

It is a horible horible thing to witness all what happen here...... they starts burning boat now.....

will wck survive after this?

1852... six month 15 night full moon

everyone is on his own now. No hero just human.......

Saga continous,...

Yip Ming-San order to totally burn down the opera house and kill whoever has red banner on thier head....

Godden brought his INVINCIBLE fire arm solder in cycling the place... in a night which light up by the blaze of the hand blaze.

under the blaze no one spare...... no kungfu can resist bullets.....

The Qing is winning. and the solder beside the westerners are people from Hu Nan and Hu Bei.... Chen Kuo-FAn s solder. and Some from SanDong.... The solder of Ma Yee-Sin.....

It is not about Qi Vesus Mandarin. It is about Power and self-righteousness...... Kungfu lost in the face of scientific-----fire arm...

.... They fleet to the west of the city..... Towards Guan Xi .... hiding.. but the army from out of state or northern were chasing them.... those are Wu Nan and Wu Bei and Northern solders.... They are the followers of Cheng Kuo Fan.. It is not a war between Qing and Madarin....

It is about Cheng Kuo-Fan and Hung Siew-Chien. The top comandor of Qing and The God's second son.... Nothing right and wrong. It is MO KAn Do or never ending way... it is about you score me once and I score you next. And the one last longer will win...... And Lee Man Mau... Wong Wah bo... are just a chess pice of these two chief.... They knows, Godon's arms from the USA and GR are what they need. Kung Fu?... just warm body to play thier game.... The military training of Ming can no longer fight in the batterfield of 1852...

So will WCK survive? after those artists run away?..................

We need Matrix to go back to that time......

Since it is significance,

What is a YJKYM? In detail how it works? In detail how its structure has to be? In detail how the weight suppose to be? In detail how the stance or post related to the hand technics?

Be detail and specifics....

Otherwise, it is just a snake oil. Take by faith. Stand there as long as possible but get no where. Saying it is better but better for what? doesn't make sense in TCM and doesn't make sense in western medicine research.... Never heard a YJKYM guy uproot anyone but the Zhang Zhuang guy always uproot others......

Hahahaha I play the dark side guy now. if you can't answer the above, than YJKYM is just a Mantra and has no meaning. Mantra like OHM OHM OHM.... (noticed not OM) So, it has no content and no meaning and nothing.

What is a Tan and Fook?

IMHO, The language has evolved...


what today was called fook in the old time say 1850's is a few different things.

1, Kaam, or cover, 2, On, or cover and press down 3, Koong, or push forward with the back of the knockle /palm.

Same with Tan, Tan is the palm up with a high of the most is shoulder high. Tan which is higher then shoulder or Today's high Tan is called Chao. different mechanism for operation...

so, there actually 5 different type of technics using two names currently. IMHO

In my understanding,

Now people has group a few things and name it Tan.

It is clasical definition, Tan is flipping / twisting/ reelling Spreading out which is evol from the water hand of White Crane Wing Chun of Fujien. This water hand evol into Wing Chun's TAn in a soft fashion and Karate's side outward block in a hard fashion.

Tan's palm is also classified to be in chest high and not higher then Shoulder.

Then, people adding the slide forward spearing movement after the TAn and call it a Tan. That sliding forward movement.. is actually the " half hidden point" of WCK. the uniquness of WCK which differentiate White Crane , other WCK, and WCK. ONe will not find this "sneaky half point " trade mark of WCK in other system. Thus, WCK due to the "half point" always has the third hand, meaning one hand more then White Crane... ect. And also, to implement this third hand, one needs the "snake" engine training.... at least that is a characteristic of Wing Chun Kuen passed down by Yik Kam from the Red Junk.

(certainly, now since I open one more card, other non WC system will also claim sure they have it. the same rule again, show prior art in writting before 1900, otherwise, one is just copying me here. and don't call a copy art the Original.... See, all WCK from Red boat has this, this is our trade mark. even I cannot speak for other lineage. But, this "half point" is our trademark. That is where the short JIng showing its flying color.

I don't belive in those Tan sau in the ultimate hand from Tan Sau Ng myth because without lots of details, such as the one about the Half point, There is no way people going to convince the world about how superior the Tan Sau of Tan Sau Ng. get to the details and transformation is the key. get very clear and particular with the methodology and implementation.)

Then, people add the Chao or lead/jang upward and called it to be Tan

Then, people make the palm as high to cover thier face level such as the "pretty woman facing mirror" of other system and called it to be Tan.

Then, Jong Sau as Bai Jong is also become Tan.

Once a simple and clear Tan thus due to everyone's free definition become alots of things.....

So, Tan can become verb, adjective, noun.... hahahaha

A Tan is Tan Tan.

No one will know what is it anymore.

As for Tan Sau that is Ying with Yang, Fook Sau that is Yang Within Ying, Then, there is Bong and Kei forarm couple. well, these then summary into 4 cycles....